Too many c-bets & too high WWSF...

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nameless1537

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I'm still experimenting with PokerTracker and so I'm playing more cash games to identify where there are potential leaks in my game. Evidently, all of my problems seem to be that I am lean a bit too aggressively when I play and these are potential problems.

Granted, it's still dealing with a very small sample size, but it is giving me some feedback for me to work with. My VPIP and PFR is all within optimal range, trending to the more aggressive side and the gap between the two is small (like around 5%-6%) but it's a good sign that at least pre-flop, I'm ok.

Now, it's post-flop that it's showing me some potential areas of concern that has me a bit puzzled. First off, it shows that my CBet frequency is hovering right around 93%, which is too high. I admit to defaulting to CBet if I am pre-flop aggressor and sometimes do this without much thought. Combine that with a high Won-When-Saw-Flop stat (at around 61%) which identifies as being potentially problematic. I had to watch the video to see why it's bad to win too often after seeing the flop, and it's saying that I might be bluffing too often... which makes sense when seeing this in conjunction with my CBet frequency... and I do admit to throwing out feeler bets to see how people respond. It's one of those things where I won't want to fix what isn't broken. Once table adjusts (by betting back at me), I'll adjust too (I figure).

So in order to fix this part of my game proactively, I need to CBet less, I guess? So I'm trying to figure out scenarios to NOT CBet after being the last one to raise pre-flop. Assuming I have a tight table image (which I tend to lean towards as tight aggressive is my default position... but I'm trying to play with wider ranges and incorporating more post-flop plays). Ones I can dream up so far:

(1) Assuming I don't have a high pocket pair, any board that has only has T or lower when playing against tight table
(2) In a loose table, if I don't catch any of the flop and it's a wet board
(3) If I am out of position and the flop looks dangerous (lots of high cards, and I may not have caught any of it).
(4) playing against calling stations (fishy) that don't show propensity to fold - this seems to be a rarity at PStars though...

Given that I'm not CBetting 7% of the time after taking a more aggressive role pre-flop, you can imagine that I'm CBetting the flop almost all of the time I have a chance. Only time I don't do it right now is scenario (3) above. Even then, I really narrow my range pre-flop as I absolutely hate playing OOP so the amount of time I am playing aggressor pre-flop OOP is very rare.

Often times, I will cbet even if I pair up with a middle card and play like I caught the top card. I will likely not cbet if I catch bottom pair though... but I might if everybody checks the flop and comes to me on the turn with nobody acting ahead of me.

Any other suggestions based on what you've read so far? Is this much ado about nothing?
 
eetenor

eetenor

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More value on later streets with less danger.

I'm still experimenting with PokerTracker and so I'm playing more cash games to identify where there are potential leaks in my game. Evidently, all of my problems seem to be that I am lean a bit too aggressively when I play and these are potential problems.

Granted, it's still dealing with a very small sample size, but it is giving me some feedback for me to work with. My VPIP and PFR is all within optimal range, trending to the more aggressive side and the gap between the two is small (like around 5%-6%) but it's a good sign that at least pre-flop, I'm ok.

Now, it's post-flop that it's showing me some potential areas of concern that has me a bit puzzled. First off, it shows that my CBet frequency is hovering right around 93%, which is too high. I admit to defaulting to CBet if I am pre-flop aggressor and sometimes do this without much thought. Combine that with a high Won-When-Saw-Flop stat (at around 61%) which identifies as being potentially problematic. I had to watch the video to see why it's bad to win too often after seeing the flop, and it's saying that I might be bluffing too often... which makes sense when seeing this in conjunction with my CBet frequency... and I do admit to throwing out feeler bets to see how people respond. It's one of those things where I won't want to fix what isn't broken. Once table adjusts (by betting back at me), I'll adjust too (I figure).

So in order to fix this part of my game proactively, I need to CBet less, I guess? So I'm trying to figure out scenarios to NOT CBet after being the last one to raise pre-flop. Assuming I have a tight table image (which I tend to lean towards as tight aggressive is my default position... but I'm trying to play with wider ranges and incorporating more post-flop plays). Ones I can dream up so far:

(1) Assuming I don't have a high pocket pair, any board that has only has T or lower when playing against tight table
(2) In a loose table, if I don't catch any of the flop and it's a wet board
(3) If I am out of position and the flop looks dangerous (lots of high cards, and I may not have caught any of it).
(4) playing against calling stations (fishy) that don't show propensity to fold - this seems to be a rarity at PStars though...

Given that I'm not CBetting 7% of the time after taking a more aggressive role pre-flop, you can imagine that I'm CBetting the flop almost all of the time I have a chance. Only time I don't do it right now is scenario (3) above. Even then, I really narrow my range pre-flop as I absolutely hate playing OOP so the amount of time I am playing aggressor pre-flop OOP is very rare.

Often times, I will cbet even if I pair up with a middle card and play like I caught the top card. I will likely not cbet if I catch bottom pair though... but I might if everybody checks the flop and comes to me on the turn with nobody acting ahead of me.

Any other suggestions based on what you've read so far? Is this much ado about nothing?

Thank you for posting.

Your post is a little to wide in scope to deal with all aspects of your question. So I will simply focus on one aspect of not c-betting that you mentioned. Why not to c-bet with second pair every time.

This video shows why we can get more value at less risk sometimes when we do not c-bet flops




Hope this helps

:):)
 
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