Tightening up and playing "by the book" results in much bigger losses

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enesem

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I am on a poker journey trying to turn an OK live cash tables player into an online success. (Playing live 1/2 tables I can usually be up 200 - 400 per session). Online is a different animal….

I posted previously about getting into some big all in hands and losing my stack, so I am studying and working hard. The problem is, using all the "by the book" techniques is causing even bigger losses.

I am playing pokerstars .10/.25 tables, and I am getting cleaned out.

My current stats over 7900 hands:

VPIP: 18.81
PFR: 9.27

The rest of my stats are all more or less in the green (poker tracker).

So, I am only going in with big hands, maybe limping pairs.

The problem is, the hands I lose, I am always ahead at the flop, then no matter what I do, I will get hammered. Last night I played on a table with one guy, here are his stats from his session:

49 hands:
VPIP: 70.83
PFR: 14.58
Won: 28.81 GBP

Now, I am plagued by players like this. If I play KK or AA, even with 3 to 5 bb raise, they call. Flop is rubbish, I check raise or raise, they call. River comes, I raise, check raise, check, doesn't matter, flop comes and they end up with trip or two weak pairs.

it seems the most loose and random players seem to win plenty. If I have AA or KK without these types of players, I usually win the blinds as everyone folds. The only decent hands I get I am crushed on.

AA, A in the flop, big raises to the point where we are both all in, the guy ends up with full house as I couldn't clear him out (my 3 x A vs pair of queens, he held on, queen on the river, he gets full house).

I wouldn't like to say this is just short term, I can sit and careful build a $ 20 buy in to $25 or $ 30 over the course of an hour or two, then one random numpty turns up and half an hour later I am on my second buy in.

I am not silly enough to say my technique is solid and not at fault, but I am using all of the best practices I have studied and still I get caned. It's not that I am predictable either, these guys just rock in and out at random.

It really seems that at the low stakes tables, you have to be completely reckless to win. Careful play doesn't seem to win.

BAH ! Rant over …


If anyone has any advice on how to break this cycle I would be hugely grateful. I am down 150 GBP since my experiment started, which is losing one buy in on cash tables so not disastrous.

Why am I good in a casino playing live but absolutely shite online ?

Thank you for your thoughts :>)

NM
 
BenSprocket

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Your PFR is far too low.

Sent from my GT-I9505
 
long_bong

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Your vpip should be around 19-28 and pfr between 13-20 you don't wanna be that TAGish exploitable player we all look out for :) and a 3bet of around 3.5-9.0 is always good. :)
 
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enesem

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According to Pokertracker, for full ring low stakes, a good PFR is 12 - 14.

Books etc say 10 - 20% VPIP.

I am just below, but to bring it up means raising pre flop with less than optimal hands, which usually get crushed at the flop. I open with the "by the book" hands.

Are you suggesting just randomly raising pre flop with bad hands ? It will bring the rate up but will cause flop folds, though sometimes catch a good flop ? If I open up more I usually get crap flops and end up dripping money away in PFR's that go nowhere.

Thanks for the help.
 
loafes

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"By the book" doesnt necessarily mean being a not or just playing premium hands. It also means utilising position and working out ranges to polorize/merge your range. Then there's post flop skill factor which can't necessarily be compacted into any by the book strategy.



Also just read the rest of your post. Shouldn't you be happy getting people to call with trash well you have AA/KK? I'm also trying to get my head around the AA hand you mention. You say you ate holding aces on a A high board but get riverbed by a full house when villain hits a Q but wouldn't that mean you have a bigger full house? Like if you hold top set and the board pairs then the only hand that can possibly neat you is quads.
 
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Poker Orifice

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Move down in stakes - 5nl (2c/5c) & get some more experience.
 
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enesem

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Yeah, I do understand that, I am usually OK live in a casino, just online is a killer.

I am confident in my skill, I open well and dump bad hands, it's just usually I go into big hands as favourite and lose. It's a steady loss too.

I will try lower stakes tables but it's easy to win there.

My aim is to build up to bigger tables.

I do appreciate the help, there is clearly a flaw in my game, so I need to work out what it is and go from there. If anyone wants to view my pokertracker db, I would be happy to open it to constructive comment.

I am very grateful for all of your comments.
 
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i don´t know at high stakes but low stakes as you said are fully random, players have so many surprises, they can limp AA and then can shove J-5 from utg and medium stack

so sometimes one gets pockets jacks and one doubts what to do, fold, shove, 3x raise, limp

sometimes one gets aces and shove, everybody folds, next time one has aces and make a 3x raise, everybody calls (and one loses of course), next time one limps, just one limps, of course one loses again,

KK is worse, because people at low stakes tend to pay any raise or even shove if they see an ace, they don´t about the other card, they know they have an ace, and that´s enough, which is worse is they don´t care about the flop either, there is not an ace, don´t worry, they will go allin, they know they will get it later and they do, but sometimes nobody has an ace which is worse, why? because is more possible to see an ace on board, so one plays carefully, and what happen, well somebody will be calling every station, and in the river he will hit the second pair

that´s the life at low stakes or maybe at poker
 
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Online play is vastly different from live play. Live play $1/$2 might even be easier to beat than even $0.05/$0.10 online... Move down in stakes until you can beat them.

I am still learning myself at 5NL even though I too generally win when playing live. Use position to your advantage, pay attention to the other plays, and don't play too passively when you've got a good hand, don't let the other play get in cheap and catch up. If they are behind and want to draw, make them pay for it.
 
long_bong

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Poker tracker and Holdem Manager give you the optimal robot numbers for a Super Nit. But yes these are great ranges to start out at for sure. But once you get better and move up in stakes it actually affects you having such a nitty playing style. And you will never get payed off. But if youre just starting out. Play nitty, play tight, get used to things and go from there.

Remember you dont want to be exploitable. But in the micros I wouldn't worry about this too much.
 
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enesem

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Sample hand from lower stakes table:

PokerStars - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

MP: 169.4 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 28.57, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 7)
MP+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
Hero (CO): 75.6 BB
BTN: 107.2 BB (VPIP: 17.65, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
SB: 76.5 BB (VPIP: 69.23, PFR: 15.38, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
BB: 59.7 BB (VPIP: 46.67, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
UTG: 112.4 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 5.56, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
UTG+1: 133.4 BB (VPIP: 27.78, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Qd Ts
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop : (9 BB, 3 players) 7s Th 7c
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets 9 BB, SB calls 9 BB, fold

Turn : (27 BB, 2 players) 9c
SB checks, Hero bets 26 BB, SB calls 26 BB

River : (79 BB, 2 players) Jh
SB checks, Hero checks

SB shows 9h Js (Two Pair, Jacks and Nines) (Pre 36%, Flop 27%, Turn 20%)
Hero mucks Qd Ts (Two Pair, Tens and Sevens) (Pre 64%, Flop 73%, Turn 80%)
SB wins 75.4 BB

This is the usual pattern of losing play.

Favourite all the way, can't shake him off, screwed with later cards. ALL - THE - TIME
 
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long_bong

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I don't have much say or advice for fullring. I myself am a 6max and HU cash player. But im sure a lot of micro members can assist you :)
 
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enesem

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I might move to 6 max, that's where ed Miller recommends, but coming from Casino play I felt I needed a bit more time to assess what was happening. (Ed miller says good 6 max technique means you can kill full ring...)

Just these hands where I have pot odds and EV+ and get called to oblivion, and lose my buy in several times per session.

I am thinking higher stakes tables will be a bit more settled, but I know that's a dangerous thought....
 
loafes

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Don't assume this. The higher stales tables are much more aggressive thus even more swingy. Only instead of having swings from bad beats its because the players put you to the test and force you in to more marginal spots. Then when you finally do make a hand you find that suddenly nobody is interested in paying you off.
 
Logan2

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I am playing Pokerstars .10/.25 tables, and I am getting cleaned out.

VPIP: 18.81
PFR: 9.27

So, I am only going in with big hands, maybe limping pairs.

Anyone playing 18/9 and limping is far away from playing by the book.

Move down, play/study more.

25nl is the first stake where people start to grind for a living, not a good place to start learning.

 
long_bong

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drop down and play 6max. Best advice you will get :) And do hand reviews biggest pots won and biggest pots lost. Helps kill the tilt of loosing when you review your hands and see where you went wrong and if you're making the proper decisions ect.
 
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enesem

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Hey, thanks to you all for the advice.

I have today played a few full ring NL10 sessions, funnily enough I seem to play my more natural game here, I am noticeably more aggressive and so far been doing OK.

Can you explain why you think 6max is better than full ring ? (I had a quick 6 max session, seems a lot more aggressive and lot more PFR's with weak hands - bit scary….)

Thanks again to you all.
 
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6-max is essentially FR without the first 3 seats.

The relative strength of a hand like KQs rises in 6-max when compared to a FR game, because there are fewer players. It is a more aggressive place, and because you are playing less tight preflop, your postflop play has to improve, otherwise you'll run a loss. At the higher stakes, anyway.
 
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enesem

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Here is another example from today, honestly, how can this keep happening ?

PokerStars - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 40 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
Hero (MP+1): 101.3 BB
CO: 92.2 BB (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
BTN: 61.1 BB (VPIP: 46.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
SB: 218.5 BB (VPIP: 10.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 10)
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 122.3 BB (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 26.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 15)
UTG+1: 46.2 BB (VPIP: 13.33, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 15)
UTG+2: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:heart: A:spade:

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (13.5 BB, 2 players) 2:heart: A:club: 2:spade:
Hero bets 6 BB, CO calls 6 BB

Turn: (25.5 BB, 2 players) K:diamond:
Hero bets 15 BB, CO calls 15 BB

River: (55.5 BB, 2 players) J:diamond:
Hero bets 53 BB, CO calls 53 BB

Hero shows K:heart: A:spade: (Two Pair, Aces and Kings) (Pre 43%, Flop 92%, Turn 95%)
CO shows J:club: J:heart: (Full House, Jacks full of Twos) (Pre 57%, Flop 8%, Turn 5%)
CO wins 154.2 BB
 
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themosthigh

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Cuz fish gonna fish. Just make a note on him and move on.
 
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enesem

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Most of my sessions go like this, with my stack going down with good hands losing against the odds.

It's very frustrating.
 
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The hands you posted seem pretty normal for micro play online. Adjustments that should help are:

Tighten Up substantially and after you get a better feel for the online game loosen up, but only in late position.

Be willing the pot control on the turn or check the river with decent but beatable hands and someone is calling. Its a grey area but you will have smaller swings.

Do not open limp early with small pairs at 25nl. Personally I open raise 22+ UTG, but many players here fold anything under TT UTG early and seem to win at a pretty good rate.
 
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enesem

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Thanks for the help.

I was playing pretty tight, earlier advice seemed to indicate loosening up and being more aggressive. I think I will continue to play tight for now until I can settle into regular steady sessions at 10NL, at least so I plug the leaks.

I can't help thinking I am just unlucky, I very rarely make a draw when I need it, yet every time I am up at the turn, it seems the Villian gets exactly the draw card he needs at the river, it's very bizarre.

The hand above, I have many just like that I could post, just to show how badly I seem to be running. Maybe it's just a down period that will correct.

NM
 
Poker Orifice

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All you can do is try to play the best you can & let go of the stuff you have no control over.
.. posting these two HH's just to make you feel a bit better

Here's a couple of fun hands for me from yesterday in a couple of tournaments I played in. One is just off the bubble where I'm sitting on just 10bb's but wake up with AA (avg. stacks though were only ~20bb's).
The other is very early in a 10euro buyin... 250bb's deep.

This stuff will happen often enough that you need to work on 'letting go' & accepting it.
 

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