Tight vs Loose, a question -

A lot of the players here are net plus tight players. Is the main reason for this simply - You play so few hands because you play so many tables?

I could go into an argument that a hand like 78s is more likely to crack AA then say . . . KK, which I'm sure it is, but the amount of time to play a hand like 78s, make your decisions, finesse the table, manipulate the pot --- Ugh, I'm losing myself.

You don't play 78s out of position because you're playing a lot of tables and waiting for premium hands? What if you were playing one table. Say in a premium tournament and you wanted all your attention on the tournament. Do you consider opening the pot with this hand?

I like to raise with this hand out of position if I feel the table will be lucrative. And I've seen a hand analasys where somebody called with 78 or 89s, and got raised all in against a guy playing QJs, called for a fraction of his chipstack (1/6th), and cracked the guy with two pair...

A lot of the posts in the thread were "Fold preflop." Really!? Wow . . . I wouldn't consider 78s a 'premium' by any stretch of the word, but it's definitely a hand I'd want to take to a flop, so calling, or even raising under the gun with it is 1: going to disguise the strength of my hand, and 2: when I hit, going to be more likely to get called by a hand that missed that thinks I'm c-betting to make people fold. For instance, let's put it against AKo.

Me under the gun, dealt 78s, raises to 3 BBs, folded around to our friend, dealt QJs, say as button, pushes all in for 10 BBs. Folded around to me.

Now, since I'm under the gun playing at a table of people who know what us going on, I'm assuming the player expects to be behind, and could have any ace, but most likely wouldn't play a hand like to be dominated by an under the gun raise, so we assume he has either a pocket pair, or low suited connectors (I would consider QJ to be the top of this spectrum, if he puts me on AKs, AKo, and he hopes I don't have AQs or AQo, or AA-JJ.

But he's gotta make a move because he only has 10 BBs. So while it is possible he has AA-22, or a hand like QJs down, I have to assume he is playing something that he would have called here if he had a stack, but since he lacks a stack, he's doing what he can with what he's got.

Best case scenario, he's got two suited overs, which I am about what? 33-40% to win? The pot has 14.5BB, and costs me 7BB to see 5 cards.

If you only get your money in good every hand, your potential of busting a hand like say, AA or AKs, which is what tight players favor, you are not going to have any big pots with these players. Suppose I have 87s vs AKs, I know my opponent is tight. The flop comes 7TK, with my non-paired cards in my suit. Top-pair top kicker is going to bet a lot to shake a draw here. And I'm going to have outs. I would have no problem calling a pot-sized bet here, as I have two 7's, 3 8's, 9 flush outs, as well as running straight cards, and I get to play for this guy's stack, because online players love betting top pair top kicker like it's immortal.

Am I wrong for my playstyle? I know a looser player is going to have bigger swings, but you have the potential to crack premium hands this way, instead of just set-mining and playing premiums.

So, that is my argument for opening your range of hands. If the reason a tight player plays a lot of tables and just waits for premiums is beacuse 1: he is playing a lot of tables and wants to make money, fine, I accept this as an answer. But occaisonally playing a hand like 87s in or out of position, why not do this? And maybe I mistook the range of hands a 'tight player' is willing to play. In which case, just let me know.

Just trying to get some intellectual discussion that will give me some brain food to help my game, all discussion is welcome.

Thanks guys.

I like to raise with this hand out of position if I feel the table will be lucrative. And I've seen a hand analasys where somebody called with 78 or 89s, and got raised all in against a guy playing QJs, called for a fraction of his chipstack (1/6th), and cracked the guy with two pair...

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The reason why it is bad to call off 1/6 of your stack here is because
1) The chips lost are more valuable than the chips gained

2)We at best have 33% equity and against his range, only have about 25%. It is just taking unnecessary risk.

Hands like 78s have value when you are deep stacked because of implied odds but when you only have 20bb, they lose their value. It is a hand you want to see the flop with because of the potential pay off if you hit but you have no pay off if all the money is in preflop.

Your logic is flawed in discounting all pocket pairs from villain's range, Yes he shoved with QJs here but he is also going to shove with mid to big pairs which has your hand crushed. Your equity is only like 25%. You see him show QJs and try to justify your play but many a times QJs is at the bottom of his range.


Nothing is wrong with being loose especially when the table is full of nits but there is a difference between loose and calling station. Raising with 78s is loose and good but calling for 1/6 of your stack is monkey bad.

Thanks for the perspective, Marginal. Much appreciated.

You're missing the point of playing 78s.

It has 21% chance to crack AA.
KK has 17% chance to crack AA.

It's not a miracle hand that beats AA, it's still a huge dog, it's just that people have trouble getting away from AA when they get outdrawn.

The reason to play 78s is to commit very few chips pre-flop and to get a crapload of them in post-flop when you're ahead, or get out of the way if you miss. This is why you play them from position.

Openning up your range is great, but open it up in late position. Why would you want to play more marginal hands in early to mid position?

In LP, look for excuses to play the cards you're dealt.
Anywhere else, look for excuses to fold.

As usual the Kid has summed it up well.

At the lower stakes I see suited connectors misplayed a fair bit. Maybe because they have a name, or a reputation for being better against AA than KK is, I often see people call all in with them. The strength of playing lower cards is that you can dump them easily when you miss the flop, but if you hit your hand is often hard to read and you can make a mint from people who can't let go of AK etc.

Here's a not uncommon scenario: A tight player raises 3BB and it folds to you on the button. You call with 78s and blinds fold. The flop comes A77. Here the villain will think their AK is good and bet - they will probably put you on a smaller A if you show interest and as long as nothing scary comes on turn or river you will take a fair chunk of their stack. When the flop is 9T2 you can semi bluff to win the pot; and with a AKJ flop you can fold very easily.

"And maybe I mistook the range of hands a 'tight player' is willing to play. In which case, just let me know."

I think this is your problem, just because someone is tight doesn't mean their range is only the top 10% of hands.

Weregoat said:

I could go into an argument that a hand like 78s is more likely to crack AA then say . . . KK, which I'm sure it is,

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This is definitely not the first time you have brought up how likely 87s beats AA. But c'mon man, if your stack is on the line, late in a tourney, who is gonna shove with 87s instead of KK?
I don't really see the value 87s other than what pokerkid and the_pup said, which to me makes perfect sense and I will try to use more in my own game.

I like suited connectors (& I'm a nit), generally from late position & when I can see a flop relatively cheap, for exactly the reasons provided by the pokerkid123 & The_Pup...after the flop, can get away from the hand if behind or collect a lot of chips if ahead.

Thanks guys. So better from position cheap for SC. I kind of already knew that, but the reasons the kid pointed out make good sense.

When you guys say suited connectors, how far down are you willing to go? I usually don't play anything worse than 98s. Is there value in hands less than that or I am playing it fine?

I value SC's 98-54 about the same.

Well the thing for me is if you have 78 suited and one of your opponents goes all in and he has more chips than you, why would you call 78 suited. i think with the statistics they just state that you have a higher chance of winning against AA than KK does. This means that you are luckier if you find that you are going against AA with 78 suited rather than KK. This does not mean that you should go all in with 7 8 suited if you think your opponent has a high pocket pair.

It seems like a good idea if you want to take risks late in a tournament. Like you said it could be really profitable, but could be really unprofitable too. I think suited connectors are best raised from the button or the CO, not under the gun. Its true that people are going to most likely misjudge the strength of your hand UTG, but i just think its safer from the button. Interesting topic though made me think lol.

tdude said:

Well the thing for me is if you have 78 suited and one of your opponents goes all in and he has more chips than you, why would you call 78 suited. i think with the statistics they just state that you have a higher chance of winning against AA than KK does. This means that you are luckier if you find that you are going against AA with 78 suited rather than KK. This does not mean that you should go all in with 7 8 suited if you think your opponent has a high pocket pair.

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Exactly what I was trying to say a couple posts up.

Thanks guys, a lot of you just put a few simple words out there, but gave me a good enough perspective. I know position is important - when I posted this thread I had hit a streak of card-dead-ness, kept missing draws, etc, and I'd fold hands like 57o out of position (+ev), and the flop would come something stupid like 346 rainbow (boo) and get tons of action, and I'd be sitting there counting up the chips I could have won . . .

And the next thing I'd get 57o from early I'd fold it, just got the old gears turning.

As far as suited connectors and how low you'll go . . . I've made a wheel straight flush with 3c4c twice. More impressively . . . I also paired both my whole cards the first time. Ussually I'm reluctant to fold 34s in position, but I'll do it. 56s though . . . I'll call if I'm reasonably certain the pot's not getting 3 bet.

Also, I just read my thread again and I don't understand it. Need to practice being concise.

play generally tight with the odd loose play once in a while, such as stabs at pots.