My thoughts on hands like KJ on 6-Max (Ring or Zoom)

Shumkoolie

Shumkoolie

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This probably was one of the leaks in my game that I have plugged up pretty well that I see some people struggle with when playing in position. I'm sticking with 6-handed play here as that is mainly what I play online if I'm not in an MTT or a S&G.

The hand is KJ (suited or unsuited) and you're on the button. I'll still raise IP with that hand some of the time, but will fold almost 100% of the time to a 3bet by the blinds unless I have some history with that person and feel that they are just making a move, but against randoms, probably mucking.

My thoughts here are you're almost never ahead of villain's 3bet range and even the times that you are, you're still guessing, and given that it's a game of incomplete information (II), you're just adding another piece of II to the hand you're playing. Even though you're in position, but it's still a very vulnerable hand.

I'll even lump in KQ, KT, AJ, AT here into the equation. Yes, I won the hand below, it's not so much that, but I wanted to get your thoughts on this as well, am I 100% correct here? Or are there factors that I am not taking into consideration here?

poker stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BTN: $5.86
SB: $9.85
Hero (BB): $9.84
UTG: $10.57
MP: $11.68
CO: $11.46

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with Kc Ad
3 folds, BTN raises to $0.35, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1.14, BTN calls $0.79

Flop: ($2.33) 9s 2d Kh (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.11, Hero raises to $3.33, BTN raises to $4.72 all in, Hero calls $1.39

Turn: ($11.77) 2s (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($11.77) As (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $11.77
BTN shows Jd Kd (two pair, Kings and Deuces)
Hero shows Kc Ad (two pair, Aces and Kings)
Hero wins $11.24
(Rake: $0.53)
 
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m3th0s

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It looks like the button fell in love with the hand or didn't give you any credit when you reraised pre and post flop. The turn and river play would have been interesting if he had more cash.
 
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SnowedIn

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why are you check raising flop?
 
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subdylzep

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Well KJ is a pretty decent hand to play in a ring game 6 handed in cash, but once it is 3 bet preflop it becomes a very vulnerable hand. Online people love to reraise preflop w AK so you should be well aware that you are playing against a PP or an AK preflop. I dont agree w the check raise on the flop as it gives your opponent a chance to check the flop w top pair and see what the turn brings, I have done this in many occasions on a cash game especially when i am playing to a 3 bet in a cash game. It could be a bad idea to check the flop on the button if you think you are playing against a PP, this could give the person BB a chance to catch a set on the turn. In general you are going to want to limit your play of KJ to hands that have less action in them, when you are getting 3 bet this hand should be folded right away unless you have previous information on the player you are involved with. Yes the way you played the hand wasnt bad and you did exactly what most people would have done. In general stay away from hands like KJ and K10, KQ ect when it comes to 3 bets preflop even on a 6 handed table. If the hand is just called there on the flop by the BB(you in this case) then the value is considerably less and the KJ only has a chance to suck out basically when you are completely ahead, but still the value you get from a hand like KJ is not enough to be playing it consistantly in a 6 handed cash game. The only thing i would suggest is staying away from check raising so much w just top pair, especially online. The turn card can bring 2 pair and sets to anyone else that is calling a 3 bet preflop so you may not want to give someone that chance or you will find yourself losing more money then you ever intended to, so if you play a 3 bet hard preflop continue to play it hard and dont try to trap so much online. People love to call and if you give them the chance to suck out it will indeed happen more often then you would like.
 
Shumkoolie

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why are you check raising flop?

I dont agree w the check raise on the flop as it gives your opponent a chance to check the flop w top pair and see what the turn brings, I have done this in many occasions on a cash game especially when i am playing to a 3 bet in a cash game.

Three reasons I check-raised.
1. He called fairly quickly on my 3bet pre. My read in that spot was he had a good enough hand that he wanted to see a flop with, and I discounted the possibility that he had Aces since I had an Ace blocker. Had he ended up with Aces there, well, I just go broke, but I don't think it happens enough of the time where I have to worry about it.
2. I figured the speed in which he called my 3bet was such that I wanted to give him the chance to lead out, that, if I do check-raise after his CBet, I'm more likely to get his stack than if I lead out.
3. Because it was a dry board, I was unconcerned about any draws (other than backdoor draws). I find a lot of people will play hands like 88-JJ this way in the BB and the button and by checking behind, they are conceding that they have been outflopped.

I raised to that amount to corner him into punting the rest of his stack. I didn't want to check-raise too small or too large, and thought in that spot, it was a good amount.

Now, had he been a little deeper, I might lead out on the flop instead, and infact, I would lead out some of the time as well even with this exact dynamic. In this situation, I just felt that it was the best way to get the entire stack while feeling really strongly that I had the best of it.

Well KJ is a pretty decent hand to play in a ring game 6 handed in cash, but once it is 3 bet preflop it becomes a very vulnerable hand.

Absolutely, which is a leak that many people have in their games, and something that I am closing up. As many pro's will say, it's about situations rather than the cards. If you feel strongly that you are dominated, even if your opponent is stone bluffing you, muck the hand and live to fight another hand.

The only thing i would suggest is staying away from check raising so much w just top pair, especially online. The turn card can bring 2 pair and sets to anyone else that is calling a 3 bet preflop so you may not want to give someone that chance or you will find yourself losing more money then you ever intended to, so if you play a 3 bet hard preflop continue to play it hard and dont try to trap so much online. People love to call and if you give them the chance to suck out it will indeed happen more often then you would like.

So true, very well said. In this situation, I went with my read and my read was bang on about my opponent. Now, sometimes it backfires in that if they did outflop me, and I'll lose whether I lead out or check-raise. It happens to everybody. There's been times when I had, say a pair of 4's on a board like that, then hit a 4 on the turn (or river) and get paid off. I find that people play passively OOP and the good players tend to exploit that (trying to be one of those players).

The other tactic that I could have tried is the Stop & Go, though sometimes a fancy play like that will cost value in that you're not applying maximum pressure up front. Sometimes it is warranted, and sometimes you want to give them more opportunities to make additional mistakes. But, given that villain's stack here was shallow enough, I wanted to apply max. pressure up front and have them make the biggest mistake possible. Shoving probably is the worst play here in that it gives them a better chance to get away (sometimes it's probably a better play too, but that is opponent dependent).

That's the great part about poker - so many different ways to deal with a certain situation. I'm glad that I had some push back about the check-raise.

:hmmmm:
 
PokerGrinder

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KJ is not that bad of a hand to raise with from around back in late position if there is no action before you. I'd raise all day with it. I actually enjoy 6 handed poker tourneys. The value of hands rise 6 handed as opposed to a 9 handed table obviously.
 
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bbiase

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It'll mostly depend on your opponents calling range and 3 betting range, but when it comes to zoom, KJ is a small pot winner, as you'll never get much action from worse. You're mainly winning pots by hitting homeruns on flops or c-betting against implied odds type of hands that missed the flop.
 
Shumkoolie

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KJ is not that bad of a hand to raise with from around back in late position if there is no action before you. I'd raise all day with it. I actually enjoy 6 handed poker tourneys. The value of hands rise 6 handed as opposed to a 9 handed table obviously.

Agreed, as long as you don`t get re-popped by one of the blinds (I`m not inclined to call KJ to an early position (EP) raise in late position, especially in Zoom). Multi-way, it doesn`t play well. I`d sooner call a small suited connector to an EP raise.

It'll mostly depend on your opponents calling range and 3 betting range, but when it comes to zoom, KJ is a small pot winner, as you'll never get much action from worse. You're mainly winning pots by hitting homeruns on flops or c-betting against implied odds type of hands that missed the flop.

True, you`re really only ever winning small pots by c-betting on a board like 942 rainbow or something similarly textured where it is likely not hitting your opponent either, and it may even take either two barrels or a delayed c-bet on the turn if villain checks behind.
 
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bbiase

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True, you`re really only ever winning small pots by c-betting on a board like 942 rainbow or something similarly textured where it is likely not hitting your opponent either, and it may even take either two barrels or a delayed c-bet on the turn if villain checks behind.

Biggest pots you'll win with KJ:

1 - Defending BB with KJ, flop comes 942 rainbow. Villain c-bet his AK, AQ, AT, AJ, KQ, 88, 77, 66, 55, 33, float the flop by calling a c-bet, turn blank, check check, donk bet the river and take the pot.

2 - Defend the BB, spike a K or a J on a dry flop, villain c-bets, you call, check check the turn, hero donks the river, villain can't lay down his unimproved TT-77 and call a river bet.

3 - Defend the BB or steal from BU/CO, flop a combo draw with a KJs and play it aggressively. If you run an equity calculator, middle pair + gutshot straight draw + flush draw is actually over 50% equity against a range full of top pairs, sets and overpairs on the flop. Which means KhJh is a shove for VALUE spot on a QhJs9h board even against the strongest ranges possible in that spot. Even if villain folds 0% OF THE TIME ON THIS SHOVE. Which is actually an interesting aspect of playing broadways that get overlooked. In this case, pretty much playing KJs as an implied odds type of hand like 76s. But this actually belongs on the "home run side of KJ".

But those are the best of the best case scenarios.
 
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If you are loking to defend is not a good way, attack is the best way
 
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sunshine0410

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Unless there is an agressiv opponent in the blind who 3bets, I would also fold KJ on the button after the 3Bet.
 
FromHereOn

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I think that's great advice on folding KJ from a three bet even 6 handed.

9 handed, might be comfortable with it from HJ, CO or the button on moderate raises or a limped pot, and I'd probably be hoping for an early takedown.

If a hand with KJ gets really strong, it's unlikely anybody else still in play has a decent hand, and you lose your implied odds. If somebody does catch a good hand, the opponent can normally can draw the turn and river to improve and really crush you.
 
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I don't like KJ, but it's definetly in my button range. But I also suggest the fold KJ after facing a 3Bet, even in pos.
 
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KJ is a pivot hand. If I feel I understand my opponent's range and betting tendencies fairly well, I'll take KJs to hit a flop.

As for the hand played above, I think the CR on the flop was ok if you felt your opponent was likely to bet at it. But in general it's a bit of a leak. You're checking with hopes your opponent has the case King, which is 16 combos KQ/KJ. Other hands here are 6 AK, 3 KK, 3 99, 3 AA, 6 QQ, 6 JJ, 6TT maybe 4 QJs, 4 KTs, 12 AJ, 12 AQ. That 15 combos that chop or beat you, and about 50 combos that have missed or only whiffed the flop.

When going for a C/R it's really important to ask yourself - will this opponent stack KQ, KJ, maybe even KT or QQ here? If our opponent can have these hands and is willing to hit the felt with them, I think a C/R is ok.

But let's say you lead out. If he's willing to stack KQ, KJ, he's certainly willing to call at least one street. It's also more likely that your opponent will call with KT, QQ, JJ, maybe TT for one street. And if you size correctly you might be able to get those QJs combos with the gut shot as well.

So in terms of the most +EV play I think going for stacks on the flop against 16 combos that might get it in vs. 15 combos that chop/beat you that definitely get it in is not the best play in a vacuum. Since your opponent's SPR is about 2.4, I think a very carefully sized bet that your opponent can call with a wider range sets you up to get stacks in on the turn much more frequently and against a range that includes more stuff that you beat.
 
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