Thoughts on 3betting

micromachine

micromachine

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Hoping for help/advice/expansion/correction on my (basic) thoughts on 3betting:


1) Why should we 3bet more OOP then IP? I think this is because when you are OOP you need to 3b bigger to get more folds when you are 3b bluffing, and because you get more value from your premiums as villains are more likely to call IP.

2) What players are good to 3bet bluff? 3bet bluffing is best against the TAGs, then the nits, then the LAGs and lastly the calling station fish. Against those that are unable to fold to 3bets it's better to avoid bluffing and widen your value range.

3) What hands are good to 3b bluff with? Anything you can't profitably call with and is likely to have some equity postflop. I like 3b bluffing with A2s-AJs, K9s-KJs, T9o-KQo, KJo, KTo, QTo and maybe a couple of one gap SCs like J9s and T8s.

4) Why should 3bet a polarised range OOP and a merged range IP? Firstly, I'm not 100% sure what merged range means lol. I think it means a wider value range without many (or any) bluffs. If so I can see why we can widen our value range IP, simply because we have the advantage of position. As for 3betting a polarized range OOP I guess it's because we can get a lot of folds (exploiting a weak range from a BTN open for example) and hope that when they do play back it's when we have a value hand.

5) Why should we 3bet bigger with a raise and multiple callers? To thin the field and get max value when we have a premium and because we need to bet more to get folds when we bluff (although I'm not sure bluffing is such a good idea with multiple opponents).

6) What should be our 3bet size? 3x the raise IP, 4x the raise OOP, up to 5x OOP with multi-way pot when you have a premium or when up against a fish who wont fold regardless of 3b size.


What I think I could do to improve would be to construct ranges for various situations, like BvB, BTN v Blind, BTN v CO and how to modify the ranges based on the openers PFR.

Thanks for reading my essay :eek: please let me know if there are any obvious flaws or gaps in my thinking and what I could consider next to improve my 3b game.
 
LD1977

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Some players always call a 3bet AI.

Just saying ;) it is a useful note with AA :D :D :D

I am not much into 3betting yet (mostly only QQ+, AK except if I have a read on someone), but reading up on it gradually.
 
benevg

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1) your 3bet size should not depend on whether you are bluffing or not :) that said, you should bet bigger OOP than IP, pretty much for the reasons you are describing.

2) 3bet bluffing, much like any other bluffing is good when people are going to fold. do not bluff stations, that is a -EV move at all times ;)

3) i may or may not have a wrong idea about this, but... 3betting with KQ is not exactly a bluff. it is not realistic to say "i am 3betting KQs for value and KQo as a bluff". bluffs are hands where if you are called, you are pretty certain that you are behind. J2s, for example. your example range seems like a really wide value range only, not really a bluffing range.

4) that is a misleading question. it is not necessarily better to 3bet those ranges in and out of position. and yes, merged range means exactly that - a wider value range. i may go into more details here at some point, but not right now.

5) especially in the micros, do not bluff much in a multi-way pot. unless you have pretty good reads and/or are playing a tournament ;) you get the right odds to call with many more hands though... (you should still be careful that someone behind you does not raise huge, but still...)

6) whatever it is, make it dependent on other factors than the hand you hold
 
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micromachine

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Thanks for your replies Benevg :)

1) your 3bet size should not depend on whether you are bluffing or not :) that said, you should bet bigger OOP than IP, pretty much for the reasons you are describing.

2) 3bet bluffing, much like any other bluffing is good when people are going to fold. do not bluff stations, that is a -EV move at all times ;)

3) i may or may not have a wrong idea about this, but... 3betting with KQ is not exactly a bluff. it is not realistic to say "i am 3betting KQs for value and KQo as a bluff". bluffs are hands where if you are called, you are pretty certain that you are behind. J2s, for example. your example range seems like a really wide value range only, not really a bluffing range.

I see what you mean, KQo is kind of borderline and can certainly be part of a merged value range, but something like QTo is definitely not strong enough to call with (against an UTG TAG when you are BTN lets say) so it's either fold or 3bet. Now I'm wondering if these kind of in-between hands should just be folded because you might get tempted to carry on postflop if he flats your 3bet and you flop a K or an OESD for example. Maybe the bluff range should be more hands that either hit the flop big or miss completely?

4) that is a misleading question. it is not necessarily better to 3bet those ranges in and out of position. and yes, merged range means exactly that - a wider value range. i may go into more details here at some point, but not right now.

Yeah I'm confused on this one, I read somewhere that it was a good strat but then I saw one of 9k's posts saying he did the exact opposite, merged OOP and polarized IP

5) especially in the micros, do not bluff much in a multi-way pot. unless you have pretty good reads and/or are playing a tournament ;) you get the right odds to call with many more hands though... (you should still be careful that someone behind you does not raise huge, but still...)

6) whatever it is, make it dependent on other factors than the hand you hold

Yeah, except when it's a total fish who wont be paying ANY attention to your sizing
 
micromachine

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Thanks man, I've read that one already actually. It's really interesting but probably a lot more useful for higher stakes than micros.
 
micromachine

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Can anyone offer any input as top whether hands that fall just outside your 3b value range should be folded instead of being added to the 3b bluff range?
 
J

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You got the merged and polarised tactics the wrong way round. You want to be 3betting more of a merged range OOP because villain is more likely to call the 3bet when they are IP so it's better to have a strong hand. Polarised works better when you're IP because most regs don't call 3bets OOP much hence the hand doesn't matter so much as we are usually expecting them to either fold or 4bet
 
Cafeman

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Can anyone offer any input as top whether hands that fall just outside your 3b value range should be folded instead of being added to the 3b bluff range?

Hands that fall just outside of our 3b value range are probably a flat then right? Unless I misunderstand what you're saying.
 
dooydoo

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1-6. Play the player. Wide value vs wide callers. Lots of bluffs vs the tights. Bigger raises by default oop. Bigger raises for value vs wide callers. Smaller 3b vs guys who will fold a ton and shorties.

Also if they call 3b and fold to cb a lot then you can 3b bigger pre and cb a lot.

My 3b bluff range depending on situation is anywhere from 22-KK and all unpaired hands. KK is a bluff vs a guy who plays 4/4. I might 3b 84o vs a guy who folds to 3b 80% for example. Dont stick with a set range of hands, read the situation and exploit it.

Will he call my 3b a lot? Yes, so wide value and bigger 3b regardless of ip or oop.

Vs unkowns dont get carried away and think they are playing back at you til you have a read.

Look at postflop tendancies like i said earlier. If he folds a lot to cb then when you 3b and he calls, cb a lot cuz they are probably fit or fold whether its a single or 3b pot.
 
micromachine

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Hands that fall just outside of our 3b value range are probably a flat then right? Unless I misunderstand what you're saying.

Lets say we are in the BB facing a single raise from a TAG (who folds to 3bets a reasonable but not exploitable amount) in MP, we have a hand like QJs, QJo, KJs, KJo or QTs.

Calling an MP raise OOP with those is bad, so it seems we must 3bet or fold. We aren't 3betting hands like this for value as we would fold to a 4bet, so then we are 3betting as a bluff.

I guess I'm asking if it's better to fold these and instead 3b bluff with stuff like 78s or A3s which will flop big or miss mostly so we don't get drawn in and lose a big pot when we call and we flop TPGK or an OESD.
 
c9h13no3

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1) Why should we 3bet more OOP then IP? I think this is because when you are OOP you need to 3b bigger to get more folds when you are 3b bluffing, and because you get more value from your premiums as villains are more likely to call IP.
I'm not certain you need to 3-bet more OOP vs. IP, your reason for 3-betting just changes. On the button against the cut off 3-bet bluffs are more likely to work. You should be playing more hands from the button than from the BB, and it's more important to defend your button than the BB (since the BTN is the most profitable position). So we should maybe be 3-betting a higher percentage of the hands we play in the blinds, but we should be 3-betting more often from the BTN because we're playing more hands total there.

2) What players are good to 3bet bluff? 3bet bluffing is best against the TAGs, then the nits, then the LAGs and lastly the calling station fish. Against those that are unable to fold to 3bets it's better to avoid bluffing and widen your value range.
It kinda depends on how you define bluff, but fish aren't bad to 3-bet bluff against. They typically fold to 3-bets (or the subsequent cbet) rather well. Even though we can 3-bet KQ and get them to call with worse, the main source of value they give us is the fact that they will give up pre or on the flop. When I'm 3-bet bluffing, I think about their preflop raise %, fold to 3bet %, flop cbet %, and steal % probably in that order.

3) What hands are good to 3b bluff with? Anything you can't profitably call with and is likely to have some equity postflop. I like 3b bluffing with A2s-AJs, K9s-KJs, T9o-KQo, KJo, KTo, QTo and maybe a couple of one gap SCs like J9s and T8s.
Your 3-bet bluffing range probably contains too many hands you can profitably call with. KQo, AJs, ect can certainly be profitable to call with, and they'll get you dominated postflop quite often in a 3-bet pot. It's best to bluff with hands that can make two pair or better on a regular basis, in the case when you're called. I'd rather 3-bet small pairs (when we can't setmine), suited connectors (including A2s-A5s), because they'll either flop a set/nut draw that you can play aggressively, or air. And air is good, since you don't get into trouble with it. Flopping 2nd pair, or top pair weak kicker puts you into tricky spots where you can easily be bluffed off your hand or value bet easily.



4) Why should 3bet a polarised range OOP and a merged range IP? Firstly, I'm not 100% sure what merged range means lol. I think it means a wider value range without many (or any) bluffs. If so I can see why we can widen our value range IP, simply because we have the advantage of position. As for 3betting a polarized range OOP I guess it's because we can get a lot of folds (exploiting a weak range from a BTN open for example) and hope that when they do play back it's when we have a value hand.
Your range more depends on the player, but you've got it backwards. 3-bet polarized IP (because you're unlikely to be called), 3-bet merged OOP.

5) Why should we 3bet bigger with a raise and multiple callers? To thin the field and get max value when we have a premium and because we need to bet more to get folds when we bluff (although I'm not sure bluffing is such a good idea with multiple opponents).
Because you can bet less and win more. You can typically 3-bet for smaller than a potsized bet when there are multiple callers because it still puts the SPR in the right spot, and because it will just look larger. So it means your bluff doesn't have to work as often to profit. And those players that called behind rarely have a hand good enough to call a 3-bet.

6) What should be our 3bet size? 3x the raise IP, 4x the raise OOP, up to 5x OOP with multi-way pot when you have a premium or when up against a fish who wont fold regardless of 3b size.
Yeah, it just depends on who's in the hand, what position you're in, and a little bit on the hand you have (especially if you're against a fish who won't pick up on that).

what I could consider next to improve my 3b game.
The last thing I'd do is to try and realize all the reasons you 3-bet for value. You've focused on bluffing quite a bit, but 3-betting pre is mostly about playing bigger pots with your big hands. Read up on stack to pot ratio, how likely you are to get your stack in 3-bet vs. 2-bet pots, and things like that.
 
micromachine

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Sweet, thanks c9 and dooydoo, I'm going to read through your posts tomorrow when less tired!
 
Cafeman

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Just to be clear, you were talking about hands that fall just outside our value 3betting range? That might be in a certain situation, for example, AJ. So you fold it? Seems odd.

EDIT: I've just realised that you appear to be talking about hands that are borderline unprofitable to flat, we can turn into a 3bet bluff. Is that what you're talking about?
 
micromachine

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Just to be clear, you were talking about hands that fall just outside our value 3betting range? That might be in a certain situation, for example, AJ. So you fold it? Seems odd.

EDIT: I've just realised that you appear to be talking about hands that are borderline unprofitable to flat, we can turn into a 3bet bluff. Is that what you're talking about?

Yeah, sorry, I was talking about hands that are borderline unprofitable to flat, particularly the weaker broadway hands. Wondering if it's better just to fold these and use other hands for 3bet bluffing that are less likely to get us into trouble post.
 
micromachine

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You got the merged and polarised tactics the wrong way round. You want to be 3betting more of a merged range OOP because villain is more likely to call the 3bet when they are IP so it's better to have a strong hand. Polarised works better when you're IP because most regs don't call 3bets OOP much hence the hand doesn't matter so much as we are usually expecting them to either fold or 4bet

Your range more depends on the player, but you've got it backwards. 3-bet polarized IP (because you're unlikely to be called), 3-bet merged OOP.


Thanks guys, I had this the wrong way round then.
 
Cafeman

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Yeah, sorry, I was talking about hands that are borderline unprofitable to flat, particularly the weaker broadway hands. Wondering if it's better just to fold these and use other hands for 3bet bluffing that are less likely to get us into trouble post.

Right, well imo it depends on a lot of things (as per lol) but one not insignificant thing to consider is how they react to our 3bet. Do they fold or call, or fold or 4bet? Do we want blockers?

Have you read and understood that donkr article yet MM? It's really rather good.
 
micromachine

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Thanks for your detailed reply, you bring up quite a few important things I don't consider when 3betting

I'm not certain you need to 3-bet more OOP vs. IP, your reason for 3-betting just changes. On the button against the cut off 3-bet bluffs are more likely to work. You should be playing more hands from the button than from the BB, and it's more important to defend your button than the BB (since the BTN is the most profitable position). So we should maybe be 3-betting a higher percentage of the hands we play in the blinds, but we should be 3-betting more often from the BTN because we're playing more hands total there.

Yeah I've been trying to 3bet more IP recently, wasn't defending my BTN enough in the past.

It kinda depends on how you define bluff, but fish aren't bad to 3-bet bluff against. They typically fold to 3-bets (or the subsequent cbet) rather well. Even though we can 3-bet KQ and get them to call with worse, the main source of value they give us is the fact that they will give up pre or on the flop. When I'm 3-bet bluffing, I think about their preflop raise %, fold to 3bet %, flop cbet %, and steal % probably in that order.

Good point. I need to consider how often they fold to cbets as well. You are going to be printing money having a fish on your right who calls too many 3bets and plays fit or fold OTF.

Your 3-bet bluffing range probably contains too many hands you can profitably call with. KQo, AJs, ect can certainly be profitable to call with, and they'll get you dominated postflop quite often in a 3-bet pot. It's best to bluff with hands that can make two pair or better on a regular basis, in the case when you're called. I'd rather 3-bet small pairs (when we can't setmine), suited connectors (including A2s-A5s), because they'll either flop a set/nut draw that you can play aggressively, or air. And air is good, since you don't get into trouble with it. Flopping 2nd pair, or top pair weak kicker puts you into tricky spots where you can easily be bluffed off your hand or value bet easily.

I think this answers the question I was asking about what hands to bluff with, hands that wont get you into trouble post are good.

Your range more depends on the player, but you've got it backwards. 3-bet polarized IP (because you're unlikely to be called), 3-bet merged OOP.

Because you can bet less and win more. You can typically 3-bet for smaller than a potsized bet when there are multiple callers because it still puts the SPR in the right spot, and because it will just look larger. So it means your bluff doesn't have to work as often to profit. And those players that called behind rarely have a hand good enough to call a 3-bet.

I get that when we squeeze we will take the pot pre quite often if the original raiser fold to 3bets a fair bit, so you saying that in general you need to 3bet a bit bigger than a standard 3bet but not massively bigger?

An example, we are BB, TAG in the CO with highish f3b raises 3x BB and a semi passive player (24/13 type, also folds to 3bets quite a bit) in the SB calls. Looks good for a bluff squeeze and the pot is 7.5bb. Are you saying that a <7.5bb 3bet could be big enough here? I've never really tried 3betting less than 3x the original raise and my thinking was that we would need to 3bet more, like 10-12bb to achieve what we want.

Yeah, it just depends on who's in the hand, what position you're in, and a little bit on the hand you have (especially if you're against a fish who won't pick up on that).

The last thing I'd do is to try and realize all the reasons you 3-bet for value. You've focused on bluffing quite a bit, but 3-betting pre is mostly about playing bigger pots with your big hands. Read up on stack to pot ratio, how likely you are to get your stack in 3-bet vs. 2-bet pots, and things like that.
 
micromachine

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Right, well imo it depends on a lot of things (as per lol) but one not insignificant thing to consider is how they react to our 3bet. Do they fold or call, or fold or 4bet? Do we want blockers?

Have you read and understood that donkr article yet MM? It's really rather good.

Yeah I read it, it is indeed v good. I'm going to read it again though so more of it sinks in!
 
micromachine

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1-6. Play the player. Wide value vs wide callers. Lots of bluffs vs the tights. Bigger raises by default oop. Bigger raises for value vs wide callers. Smaller 3b vs guys who will fold a ton and shorties.

Also if they call 3b and fold to cb a lot then you can 3b bigger pre and cb a lot.


My 3b bluff range depending on situation is anywhere from 22-KK and all unpaired hands. KK is a bluff vs a guy who plays 4/4. I might 3b 84o vs a guy who folds to 3b 80% for example. Dont stick with a set range of hands, read the situation and exploit it.

Will he call my 3b a lot? Yes, so wide value and bigger 3b regardless of ip or oop.

Vs unkowns dont get carried away and think they are playing back at you til you have a read.

Look at postflop tendancies like i said earlier. If he folds a lot to cb then when you 3b and he calls, cb a lot cuz they are probably fit or fold whether its a single or 3b pot.

Nice points bolded, thanks very much :)
 
c9h13no3

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If the button raises 3x, the SB calls, a pot sized raise is 12bb's. The button has to call 9 to win 18 (1 to 2). All pot sized bets or raises offer your opponent 2:1 pot odds. So yes, a 10-11bb 3-bet will often win the pot.
 
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