The terrible players at 5NL

akaRobbo

akaRobbo

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Im a winning player overall. I play 5NL and have 8.46BB/100 at this moment in time.

Ok, so the amount of terrible players at 5NL is just staggering, I actually wonder what goes through these people's heads and why the hell they are playing online for real cash.

Recently Ive taken an 11BI downswing, and im now at 8.46BB/100, nearly all of these losses are due to people hitting runners on me, making flushes or straights. I bet aggressively, always 2/3 pot+ when I know im good, but these calling stations just dont budge. I know they are losing money in the long run, and "in the long run you'll come out on top" but its just boring and down right terrible play lol, and how much is my poker game really improving playing against these players? I want to take poker very seriously, Im pretty young and can see myself playing in the future. Id much rather be losing money to people outplaying me, than to people who shouldn't even be in the hand. Ill try bluffing people, representing the winning hand, or completed draws etc and they'll just obliviously call me with like middle pair with a low kicker, its as though they dont even consider what I might have?

So my question is, how do the players at 10NL and 25NL compare to that of 5NL? 5NL is really boring me now, and it just feels like people think "oh its only $5 ill just bluff and mess around", and the others are just simply horrible players. Playing against these people means I have to alter my playing style to be tighter, so I can confidently call their bets, which goes against how I like to play. It only takes one of these donks at the table to cause this too. With more money on the line at higher stakes, I don't think its as likely that people call All ins with the likes of A4o, hitting a 4 on the river whilst you have AK? Just an example from today.

After my downswing, if I follow proper BRM, I cant cater for 10NL or 25NL yet. But would be willing, and can afford to deposit. I want to take poker seriously. Ive been playing for some months online and started off by depositing $50 and started at 5NL and my bankroll has grown pretty well from there.

I dont want this post to come across as me saying im "too good for 5NL" and that I never play badly or get outplayed, of course I do. But im confident that Im a good player.

Do any of you hate the Micro-stakes? When did you move up?
 
BluffMeAllIn

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Just curious 8.46BB/100 over how many hands? Also is that actually big bets (BB) or big blinds (bb).

Playing these players will overtime print you $$, its frustrating but I'm sure anyone would agree they would prefer to make money than to lose money so why say you would rather be losing money getting outplayed than overall winning even when at times you get outdrawn?

I can see how its frustrating and might make you think you would prefer to move up the limits quicker, and honestly if you can afford to deposit and be rolled for a higher limit then go for it, but remember if you go on a downswing unless you plan to keep depositing to stay at the limit you may have to drop back and still deal with lower limits eventually anyhow.

Personally I have steered away from cash games for a while, had/have issues jumping stakes to chase losses. I would certainly prefer to just play 25nl if I was rolled, because it feels like playing for $$ worthwhile, but at the same time know that when i do go back to cash games I plan to work my way through the limits because it will help with focus and improving at what could be a less expense (bad beats happen at 25nl+ as well).

Good Luck with you cash grind, and also what do you consider a proper BRM? 10bi @ 5nl that you started with isn't really a good BRM but then again being able to redoposit if you go bust also means your online br is not what is available for your overall BRM.

Also do you play reg tables or rush (assuming its fulltilt based on your info in the corner), rush can be way swingy and bad beat ridden IMO at 5nl.
 
SeaRun

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Just curious 8.46BB/100 over how many hands? >>>>SNIP

Not meaning to jack this thread, but it is related.

How many hands is a good number to be considered a good baseline?

As an example, I'm currently in a session $0.01-$0.02 NLHE where I've played 280 hands and up ~ 125 big blinds, or about 45 bbs/100. Now, I'm not going to be stupid enough to think I can do that every time, 'cause I know I can't.

I've seen reference a good baseline for NLHE ring games is 10 bbs/100, but how many hands should you consider? 2000? 5000? 10,000???
 
akaRobbo

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Hi Bluff thanks for your reply. Ill answer your questions :)

Ive played just under 30k hands. 8.46BigBlinds/100 Hands.

The bit where I said about losing by being outplayed: I meant I would rather that happening, than losing because the other guy sucking out on me, not being a losing player overall. I know suckouts can happen, but surely higher up stakes the ratio between suckouts and good play/ big hands creating big pots is different?

I agree with you about the possibility that my downswing could continue if I moved up, which could create big problems, and that might require me to drop down again, then id be back to square one.

Yeh I didnt have any bankroll management when I started, just deposited $50 and thought, if I lose it then ill re-deposit, thankfully I haven't had to.

Proper BRM id say would be 20-40BI, but totally depends on the type of player you are.

I play 6-max
 
hashtag

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Hi Robbo,

How about this line of thought:

You will meet all manner of poker players in your time, the good the bad and the idiot. To be a serious good poker player, you must be able to consistently beat all types of poker player. If you are not bankrolled enough for higher stakes, then you have not consistently beaten, or learned to beat the bad players at your current stakes. Therefore, the wisest thing to do would be play where you are until you are rolled for the next level.

Incidently, I f*****g hate the microstakes, but like you I'm stuck there until I improve enough to move up.

Have fun.
 
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enesem

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Hi Robbo,

This is a great discussion point which I have raised a couple of times in this forum. (See other post about whether ABC poker is the best strategy)

The common answer seems to be that you have to learn to play at 5NL before you move up.

I could comfortably BR up to 25 or 50 NL but I am playing 5NL in order to improve my game, and I am too finding it really difficult to do so due to the wild play. I am currently about 300 pounds down (see my blog for info).

I am putting it down to variance, my live game is pretty successful. Online I suck.

I have wondered if people are less reckless at higher stakes, this weekend I may play a up to 200 NL for a change.

I too am getting very bored with turning a 5 dollar buy in to 7 or 8 dollars over a couple of hours just to lose the lot on a terrible suck out. As you say, bluffing, barrelling, representing often doesn't count for anything, though using hid stats helps me understand my opponents and I will still try.

I will play strong hands or lucky flops (if I see the flop cheap) and I will generally bet big at the flop and turn to close the hand and take the pot, I will not risk building a pot only to lose to the miracle river card, it's much more profitable to close the hand. Again, many may disagree, so it's just my way.

But, I am learning to take the beats and I am grinding away to improve my game, One thing that really helped was reading Nathan William's book -http://www.blackrain79.com/p/book.html

So I am sticking at 5NL for now. On Sunday I am having a coaching session with Nathan, where I hope to learn more about playing at this level.

My aim is to be a better live player, for now I am not sure 5NL will help with that, but many people here with way more experience say it will so I am grinding away.

I can say my game has improved, I am not losing so fast. I think I have played some bad hands, but I have also had some terrible luck, which I am putting down to getting my variance in early :>)

But I have to also say, I am not enjoying it much, but for now I feel it's a worthwhile learning opportunity.

I have 4 days of live 200 NL coming up, it will be interesting to see if I play any better, I feel I will, so it's worth the work I am putting in.

Just stick with it.
 
Karozi615

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you keep betting and they keep calling with worse, AND they won't budge?
that sounds horrible.
I'm guessing your "win rate" of 40 cents an hour is off of like a 10k sample size or something lol. Anyhow, if the bad players are getting to you then you should just up your stakes and play some .25/.50. You'll have a TON more sweats and you'll be down 8bb/hr instead of up

I don't even know why I click on these threads complaining about bad players anymore. it makes me angry.
 
akaRobbo

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Thanks Hashtag.

Yeah, the advice ive been given probably means im stuck here for a bit longer. I think if I did deposit more to be rolled for higher-stakes, then ended up continuing to run bad/ play bad or whatever is going on with me at the minute, it would have a massive negative effect on me.

Probably sensible, albeit not the most exciting, to stay at 5NL.

Just read your post enesem, it was really helpful. Thanks and GL to both of you
 
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enesem

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Try this for fun - go to the high stakes tables and observe the play there -

You will see plays that would take hours of analysis to understand, if at all. That's what you want to aspire to be able to do. I bet those guys could read the 5NL tables like it was child's play.

So it can be done.
 
Karozi615

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And honestly I think "downswings" are often fabricated and overstated. Don't use that word as it is a justification for losing money. A downswing suggests a statistically improbable amount of coolers over a short span. Players who put in an incredible VOLUME experience this, but Joe schmo who plays an hour a night loses two all ins in a row and suddenly the DOWNSWING is alive and kicking. Can you please post your graphs to verify this downswing and maybe give us some hand examples where players drew out on you?
The fact of the matter is a somewhat good, competent poker player should be able to beat 5NL blind. Heres the catch, I can read between the lines and I can tell you don't get it.
You said that an example from TODAY is that you went all in with AK and your opponent called you with A4 and rivered a 4. How can you justify getting the money in preflop with AK in a cash game at 5nl? THIS ISNT HOW POKER WORKS. there is NO REASON to get it in preflop with AK. It's like your asking to gamble.
Good players win by not even getting to showdown, they don't win by donk jamming it at 5NL any time they get two big cards, lmfao.
IF you just raise in position with AK and then c-bet the flop A4 can't call you.
If your out of position and your opponent shoves a $4.00 stack in after you've made it 17 cents, you just fold buddy.
basically what im saying is, based on your brief description of the AK vs A4 hand I can already deduce that your game has serious leaks and that you need to peruse these forums more. For starters, read the forum dedicated to AK and its strength level in cash games and tournaments.
 
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enesem

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By the way, +8bb/100 is very, very good - above what is regarded as a winning rate for pros.
 
Logan2

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8bb/100 is good, but 30,000 hands are not a decent example, could be just variance. How much is your evbb/100 ?
 
Theromeo2k

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Recently Ive taken an 11BI downswing, and im now at 8.46BB/100, nearly all of these losses are due to people hitting runners on me, making flushes or straights. I bet aggressively, always 2/3 pot+ when I know im good, but these calling stations just dont budge.

Poker is all about making adjustments in order to come out on top and win. If those players tend to peel more, then you should probably adjust your bet sizing. Betting less will help you cut your losses when you value bet thinly or are beat. Remember that money saved it's money earned. Also, don't overcall or play spots where you have very little equity against these players.

Playing against these people means I have to alter my playing style to be tighter, so I can confidently call their bets, which goes against how I like to play.

This is what poker is all about. If you're a one dimensional player, then you won't be a winning player over the long run. You may win a couples of sessions here and there, but when you lose you will lose big due to other leaks; thus, losing in the long run.

If you think these players are horrible and you have an edge against them, then why are you complaining? You should be able to own those stakes given what you said.
 
aa88wildbill

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Hi Robbo,

How about this line of thought:

You will meet all manner of poker players in your time, the good the bad and the idiot. To be a serious good poker player, you must be able to consistently beat all types of poker player. If you are not bankrolled enough for higher stakes, then you have not consistently beaten, or learned to beat the bad players at your current stakes. Therefore, the wisest thing to do would be play where you are until you are rolled for the next level.

Incidently, I f*****g hate the microstakes, but like you I'm stuck there until I improve enough to move up.

Have fun.
+1
 
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You will find better players more frequently as you move up, but there will always be luck boxes at every level. Play through 25nl seems pretty bad to me. 50nl is very beatable if you can beat 5nl. I consistently win more at 50nl than at lower levels. (The game starts becoming more meaningful to me at this level). For me 100nl is a where the game seems to get harder. The quality of the good players seems to go up and the number of ATM's seems to go down. Gamblers are still plentiful, suck outs still happen with some regularity.
 
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scorpion1367

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Umm it is the luckboxes and bad players you want to find at any level as they are the ones you make your profit off of. Being able to adjust your playing style to table dynamics is a skill most good poker players have,if you can't do that you may have leaks in your game you have not recognised yet.....scorp
 
akaRobbo

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I don't even know why I click on these threads complaining about bad players anymore. it makes me angry.

So why have you came back and posted again? Blabbing on about how I should learn to play AK pre-flop. And that a competent player should be able to beat 5NL "blind". Where have I said that im not beating it? I won't be replying to you again.
 
DrazaFFT

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Robbo, im not gonna comment the samole size nor the winrate, what i gonna concentrate is mental game of poker, i would suggest you to read poker mindset if you havent read it already, to sum it up dont be mad at bad players who win money making bad decisions, you want them to keep playing and keep making bad decisions and make sure to pick up good spots and hands against them, that will show profit in a long run if you are not the one who is making bad decisions too... I would always chose to lose money from worse players who get lucky than to be outplayed by better players, 10th best player in a world will lose money if he sat at the table with 9 best players, he should aim to play with worse players than he is so he can make profit, keep playing and try making the least mistakes you can and you will turn profit in a long run... Also make sure that you are analyzing your game and looking for possible leaks, im a micro player too, im not turning big profit and still havent moved up in levels but i think that my mental game is lot above my poker game where i still have leaks to fix but i dont bother at all about bad players, bad beats etc i only get angry when i play a hand bad, i instantly mark the hand for further analyze, getting mad about others wont get you anywhere... keep playing and working on your game results will came by time...

good luck at the tables...

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk
 
Arjonius

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The transition from one buyin level to the next isn't the same for everyone. Some move up very smoothly while others struggle and have drop down and try again multiple times.

Obviously, ability plays a role in this, but it's completely straightforward since few people improve in a steady linear fashion. So, for example, some players who became successful at mid- and high stakes moved smoothly from say NL10 to NL25 and then NL50 while others experienced bumps in the road at one or even both of these levels.

Moving up smoothly isn't just about having a higher win rate plus enough buyins in your roll. As a simple example, with a solid win rate at say 10NL plus a $1000 BR, it's still not a great idea to move up to NL25 if having $25 on the table is enough to affect your game. In this case, it's better to take shots until you get used to NL25 enough so you can consistently play your best.
 
magicius

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And honestly I think "downswings" are often fabricated and overstated. Don't use that word as it is a justification for losing money. A downswing suggests a statistically improbable amount of coolers over a short span. Players who put in an incredible VOLUME experience this, but Joe schmo who plays an hour a night loses two all ins in a row and suddenly the DOWNSWING is alive and kicking. Can you please post your graphs to verify this downswing and maybe give us some hand examples where players drew out on you?
The fact of the matter is a somewhat good, competent poker player should be able to beat 5NL blind. Heres the catch, I can read between the lines and I can tell you don't get it.
You said that an example from TODAY is that you went all in with AK and your opponent called you with A4 and rivered a 4. How can you justify getting the money in preflop with AK in a cash game at 5nl? THIS ISNT HOW POKER WORKS. there is NO REASON to get it in preflop with AK. It's like your asking to gamble.
Good players win by not even getting to showdown, they don't win by donk jamming it at 5NL any time they get two big cards, lmfao.
IF you just raise in position with AK and then c-bet the flop A4 can't call you.
If your out of position and your opponent shoves a $4.00 stack in after you've made it 17 cents, you just fold buddy.
basically what im saying is, based on your brief description of the AK vs A4 hand I can already deduce that your game has serious leaks and that you need to peruse these forums more. For starters, read the forum dedicated to AK and its strength level in cash games and tournaments.

I just love this post... Very nice said,useful

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk
 
N

NorskNewman

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And honestly I think "downswings" are often fabricated and overstated. Don't use that word as it is a justification for losing money. A downswing suggests a statistically improbable amount of coolers over a short span. Players who put in an incredible VOLUME experience this, but Joe schmo who plays an hour a night loses two all ins in a row and suddenly the DOWNSWING is alive and kicking. Can you please post your graphs to verify this downswing and maybe give us some hand examples where players drew out on you?
The fact of the matter is a somewhat good, competent poker player should be able to beat 5NL blind. Heres the catch, I can read between the lines and I can tell you don't get it.
You said that an example from TODAY is that you went all in with AK and your opponent called you with A4 and rivered a 4. How can you justify getting the money in preflop with AK in a cash game at 5nl? THIS ISNT HOW POKER WORKS. there is NO REASON to get it in preflop with AK. It's like your asking to gamble.
Good players win by not even getting to showdown, they don't win by donk jamming it at 5NL any time they get two big cards, lmfao.
IF you just raise in position with AK and then c-bet the flop A4 can't call you.
If your out of position and your opponent shoves a $4.00 stack in after you've made it 17 cents, you just fold buddy.
basically what im saying is, based on your brief description of the AK vs A4 hand I can already deduce that your game has serious leaks and that you need to peruse these forums more. For starters, read the forum dedicated to AK and its strength level in cash games and tournaments.
There is advice in this rant for you and its good. But the poster does not have control of his emotions. A weakness.
Take the nasty tone out and he's helping abit.
anyway, Im a losing player. But I do know your sample size is way too small. These guys on the forums want you to have like 100k hands. You dont want to play good players, you want bad players and manaics the most at your table, mark these guys and hunt them down everytime you log on. Adjust and profit.
 
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