Taking the free card??

I have been trying to bet the turn and river pretty relentlessly unless I face resistance but in a couple of situations I have been called down to the river by 2nd pair weak kicker on a board that wold look pretty scary to any thinking opponent. (I'm, talking Q2o calling to the river on a two tone AKQ87 board, etc.) which really stinks if you have position and a TAG image but came short with T9s.

What I'm wondering is; when are good times to take the free card? My feeling is that if you completely miss and are IP (like AK on an 8 high board) then it is best to c-bet and c/f the turn.

I know every poker question can be qualified with 'it depends' but say like you've been at a table two orbits and are facing unkowns who seem neither mainiacal or nitty. What would you do with the following?

You have something like AcJc and the board comes down Tc8d7s giving you two overcards, a gutshot and a backdoor flush? Are you better off taking a free card if it checked to you (in a heads up pot) or make a c-bet?

A slightly different scenario, if you are OOP with AK, miss the flop (dry and small board) and are heads up, you fire a c-bet and get called. Do you fire again on the turn or check knowing you will probably need to fold to a possible bluff on the turn?

or this? A seemingly fishy EP limps, unkown MP limps behind. You pot it with KdTd on the button. EP calls, 2nd limper folds. Flop comes down AcKs6d giving you middle pair and some weak draws but an scare card as well. EP makes a pot sized donk bet. Do you want to re-raise here, fold or is this a place to even call IP for the next card?

Thanks

It depends on the risks of your hand getting worst, if there are a lot of cards that could harm your hand then you should just call/check. If oyu have the BIG % chance then you should try to increase the pot size. In any case you could get a 1 outer in the river or so and getting a huge bad beat but that's poker anyway...

Hey fx,

There are a lot of "it depends" in your scenarios, but I'll give it a try. Without including the stakes, it's very hard to give constructive answers as well (I primarily play NL100-400, so moves I commonly make often won't work as well at NL10-25 for example)

1) Depending on the opponent and my image, I would alternate almost 50/50 between cBetting this flop and checking with the intention to use a delayed cBet or raise if he decides to donk the turn. This allows you to keep the upper hand on a flop where you have a lot of equity. What do you do when check-raised on the flop and then led into on a blank turn?

2) Again, depends on image and your opponent. Usually c/f here.

3) I'm flat calling or folding here. You're either way ahead or way behind. If you call, re-evaluate based on your opponent's turn play and on what the turn brings. Think about what your raise does? You're usually only called/raised when behind and your opponent will usually fold when you're ahead.

i think your being to aggressive on the turn and river. co betting the flop is standard should be done about 80% of the time in my openion. i tend to check the turn with something like top pair or any pair for pot control. remember if they call the turn then they're going to call the river. im guessing you lose alot of your stack when you fire out 3 barrels on the flop turn and river. try to practice pot control when the bettings on you.

JMcCabe said:

Hey fx,

There are a lot of "it depends" in your scenarios, but I'll give it a try. Without including the stakes, it's very hard to give constructive answers as well (I primarily play NL100-400, so moves I commonly make often won't work as well at NL10-25 for example)

1) Depending on the opponent and my image, I would alternate almost 50/50 between cBetting this flop and checking with the intention to use a delayed cBet or raise if he decides to donk the turn. This allows you to keep the upper hand on a flop where you have a lot of equity. What do you do when check-raised on the flop and then led into on a blank turn?

2) Again, depends on image and your opponent. Usually c/f here.

3) I'm flat calling or folding here. You're either way ahead or way behind. If you call, re-evaluate based on your opponent's turn play and on what the turn brings. Think about what your raise does? You're usually only called/raised when behind and your opponent will usually fold when you're ahead.

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thanks, just to clarify: 2NL (FR).

As far as table image goes, I really am trying to be relentless. By firing flop (cbet 90%+) and turn over I am getting a lot of folds and when I do come up short on the river it is getting me more action when I make a monster. On the other hand, at 2NL so many players never think about my cards and will call down to the river if they caught the tiniest corner of the flop.

IF am check-raised on scenario # 1, I am probably laying down as it could be a made straight and if villain thought I was super aggro nd felt that I might overreact to this play by re-raising maybe thought he'd get more money in this way??

I agree with #2, actually a pretty easy fold, just hate to throw away any equity if his nothing is worse than mine, but I guess that's the advantage of position.

For # 3 I feel that logically calling 1 bet wouldn't be bad but also think if the turn is a blank i'll have to fold if he bets out without ever knowing what he had, as he could have any two including any 6 or a weak K. On the other hand many 2nl players love to limp/ call with almost any A so it is possible he has it. I just feel it is better to either fold or re-raise. Worse case scenario would be calling his bet, getting the Qd or Jd on the turn, re-raising his turn bet, he calls and then whiffing on the river and facing a large bet. Just re-raising the flop bet would be cheaper and less agonizing.

I would always recommend c-betting flop when you flop draws as your opponent could have complete air and fold. Betting the turn after you've missed is really a situation where betting is fine and checking is fine. Your opponent has shown strength and that they have a piece of the flop, so slowing down isn't bad, but they may now decide to fold as you have show more strength yourself by betting again. Betting the turn also creates a bigger pot if you hit your draw.

If you really are cbetting 90% of the time that's likely a leak. Dialing that back to even 75% will likely show improvement. Aggression is a good thing but blind aggression is expensive.

fx20736 said:

I have been trying to bet the turn and river pretty relentlessly unless I face resistance but in a couple of situations I have been called down to the river by 2nd pair weak kicker on a board that wold look pretty scary to any thinking opponent. (I'm, talking Q2o calling to the river on a two tone AKQ87 board, etc.) which really stinks if you have position and a TAG image but came short with T9s.

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I think this pretty much sums up the problem right here. Why c-bet against an opponent if they're not going to fold? Opponent type has as much to do with c-betting as board texture, your image and perceived range, etc.

Lemme look through your scenarios real quick (granted I'm not a cash player, so take it all with a grain of salt):

You have something like AcJc and the board comes down Tc8d7s giving you two overcards, a gutshot and a backdoor flush? Are you better off taking a free card if it checked to you (in a heads up pot) or make a c-bet?

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I'd definitely c-bet that, you have about 44% equity against a pair at this point, you may not get folds very often but it seems like your equity is too great to check it back.

A slightly different scenario, if you are OOP with AK, miss the flop (dry and small board) and are heads up, you fire a c-bet and get called. Do you fire again on the turn or check knowing you will probably need to fold to a possible bluff on the turn?

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yup, c-bet the flop, depending on what the turn brings and your opponent you may either choose to check it back or c-bet again. I suppose as a default check it back and fold the river, which I know seems exploitable, but few opponents, escpecially at 2NL, are going to float you out-of-position.

or this? A seemingly fishy EP limps, unkown MP limps behind. You pot it with KdTd on the button. EP calls, 2nd limper folds. Flop comes down AcKs6d giving you middle pair and some weak draws but an scare card as well. EP makes a pot sized donk bet. Do you want to re-raise here, fold or is this a place to even call IP for the next card?

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You can call and reevaluate on the turn, but tbh I don't think folding is wrong here, is he potting with K9 ever? Probably not. So it feels gross and nitty but mucking the flop is probably fine. With that type of hand you're not looking to flop one pair, so try to get away when you do and things get expensive.

In the last example you have given I would just limp behind with marginal hands like KT on the button. Since there are two limpers in the pot already, raising for isolation won't work especially in micros. You couldn't raise hands like this for value either since the limper might have weak ace which is actually ahead of you preflop.

I would just fold if EP donks. Since quite a few people do not play by the flow in micros, his bet screams of either at least top pair or very weak draws like gutshot. Raising here is terrible, as you won't be able to force a better hand to fold, and worse hands will just fold anyway. Calling is also bad if you're behind, as you are at best drawing to five outs on the turn and river, (or you might actually be drawing almost dead). Your position already saved you some money by not having to c-bet the flop, so save even more money by folding.

Remember, one of the most important goals in NLHE is to see cheap flops with position when you don't have that good of a hand. Here, your hand is marginal, and your opponents already gave you the chance to do both (seeing the flop for a mere 1BB with the best postflop position possible), so go ahead and do both!

cjatud2012 said:

I think this pretty much sums up the problem right here. Why c-bet against an opponent if they're not going to fold? Opponent type has as much to do with c-betting as board texture, your image and perceived range, etc.

Lemme look through your scenarios real quick (granted I'm not a cash player, so take it all with a grain of salt):

I'd definitely c-bet that, you have about 44% equity against a pair at this point, you may not get folds very often but it seems like your equity is too great to check it back.

yup, c-bet the flop, depending on what the turn brings and your opponent you may either choose to check it back or c-bet again. I suppose as a default check it back and fold the river, which I know seems exploitable, but few opponents, escpecially at 2NL, are going to float you out-of-position.

You can call and reevaluate on the turn, but tbh I don't think folding is wrong here, is he potting with K9 ever? Probably not. So it feels gross and nitty but mucking the flop is probably fine. With that type of hand you're not looking to flop one pair, so try to get away when you do and things get expensive.

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Can't you also c-bet to build value if you make a huge hand on the turn or river? I'm at work so don't have the HH but I raised a limper fron the button with 77 yesterday. The flop came down AKx. He checked, I bet, he called. The turn was a 7, giving me a set. He bet, I re-raised. He shoved. I called. He had tried to slow play AK and had Top Two and I stacked him. If I had checked behind the pot would have been much smaller. True he may not have got away from that particular hand but there have been several hands whereI was able to build a nice pot so when I made a straight or flush on the turn or river I really get paid. By going down to a showdown a few times after firing 2 or 3 barrels with air opponents now no longer believe you have a hand ever.

I do agree that I am c-betting a little too much, especially when I have position and should take advantage of that a little more often. When I don't c-bet is when I am OOP in a Multiway pot with a hand like AK that missed. I figure if there are two others in the pot and I missed one of them has something.

I also have a pretty standard rule; I f I 3bet, I c-bet.

WVHillbilly said:

If you really are cbetting 90% of the time that's likely a leak. Dialing that back to even 75% will likely show improvement. Aggression is a good thing but blind aggression is expensive.

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WV, could you give me some typical situations where you don't cbet??

Thanks

fx20736 said:

WV, could you give me some typical situations where you don't cbet??

Thanks

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Sure. Generally when OOP on coordianted flops, I'll just check / fold.
So I open AQo from MP1 and the BTN flats. Flop is 4d 9s Ts. I check / fold.

In position, I'll often check behind when against multiple callers.
So I iso a limper from LP with KQs and both blinds call, limper calls. Flop is 4d 8s Jh. It checks around to me and I check behind with 6 outs to TP because the chances of me getting 3 people to fold here are slim.

I'll also occasionally check behind with a weak TP, strong middle pair, or draw I don't want to be ch/raised off of.

So I open on the BTN with A4o and the SB calls. Flop is 3d, 8h, As. I'll check behind here with my weak TP because I don't expect much action if I'm ahead (probably 1 street). So by checking the flop on boards like this we often get 2 streets from worse hands and we play for a pot size appropriate to our hand strength.

fx20736 said:

Can't you also c-bet to build value if you make a huge hand on the turn or river? I'm at work so don't have the HH but I raised a limper fron the button with 77 yesterday. The flop came down AKx. He checked, I bet, he called. The turn was a 7, giving me a set. He bet, I re-raised. He shoved. I called. He had tried to slow play AK and had Top Two and I stacked him. If I had checked behind the pot would have been much smaller. True he may not have got away from that particular hand but there have been several hands whereI was able to build a nice pot so when I made a straight or flush on the turn or river I really get paid. By going down to a showdown a few times after firing 2 or 3 barrels with air opponents now no longer believe you have a hand ever.

I do agree that I am c-betting a little too much, especially when I have position and should take advantage of that a little more often. When I don't c-bet is when I am OOP in a Multiway pot with a hand like AK that missed. I figure if there are two others in the pot and I missed one of them has something.

I also have a pretty standard rule; I f I 3bet, I c-bet.

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You do realize your given situation happens ~4% of the time...

Yes I tend to agree with what you said, just not with the hand you've provided. That's why I would c-bet a hand like your AJ example, because you're much more likely to hit. That doesn't mean don't c-bet your 77, just don't c-bet it because you're trying to stack him on the turn when you turn your set.

I also agree that c-betting in a 3-bet spot is pretty standard.

WVHillbilly said:

Sure. Generally when OOP on coordianted flops, I'll just check / fold.
So I open AQo from MP1 and the BTN flats. Flop is 4d 9s Ts. I check / fold.
wouldn't an observant opponent pick up on this and know that you c/f when you miss?

In position, I'll often check behind when against multiple callers.
So I iso a limper from LP with KQs and both blinds call, limper calls. Flop is 4d 8s Jh. It checks around to me and I check behind with 6 outs to TP because the chances of me getting 3 people to fold here are slim.

I agree with you on this

I'll also occasionally check behind with a weak TP, strong middle pair, or draw I don't want to be ch/raised off of.

So I open on the BTN with A4o and the SB calls. Flop is 3d, 8h, As. I'll check behind here with my weak TP because I don't expect much action if I'm ahead (probably 1 street). So by checking the flop on boards like this we often get 2 streets from worse hands and we play for a pot size appropriate to our hand strength.

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Couldn't you just as well bet to see if the Ace is a scare card to your opponent? Small hand small pot??? One of my very pecuilar traits is that I avoid rag aces like the plague. Unless I am in the BB and it is checked to me I would never play A4o. In fact until recently I would open fold A9o, A8o from the button so as to not lose with them.I have since loosened up (a little) and now will open ATo from the CO and A9o, A8o from the button. I also still regularly fold AQo when UTG unless the table is really soft. This style really has to do with the fact that at the micros so many players will play Ax like it's the nuts. (I love getting my KK stacked by Ace-deuce) and will play them accordingly that just about the time I think my AJo is good villain shows down AK on the river. I think I have extracted some additional value from AQo, AJs, ATs by 3betting these hands from MP/ LP if a loose-weak player open-raises although I lost my mind one day recently and went aggro-shovetard for a session and kept getting it in with AQo & 88 over and over with predicatble results- I still can't figure out what got in my drinking water that day!!!!

fx20736 said:

Couldn't you just as well bet to see if the Ace is a scare card to your opponent? Small hand small pot??? One of my very pecuilar traits is that I avoid rag aces like the plague. Unless I am in the BB and it is checked to me I would never play A4o. In fact until recently I would open fold A9o, A8o from the button so as to not lose with them.I have since loosened up (a little) and now will open ATo from the CO and A9o, A8o from the button. I also still regularly fold AQo when UTG unless the table is really soft. This style really has to do with the fact that at the micros so many players will play Ax like it's the nuts. (I love getting my KK stacked by Ace-deuce) and will play them accordingly that just about the time I think my AJo is good villain shows down AK on the river. I think I have extracted some additional value from AQo, AJs, ATs by 3betting these hands from MP/ LP if a loose-weak player open-raises although I lost my mind one day recently and went aggro-shovetard for a session and kept getting it in with AQo & 88 over and over with predicatble results- I still can't figure out what got in my drinking water that day!!!!

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Your playing 2nl there are few observant opponents and if they are semi-intelligent you don't seem to have any concern that they are currently noting that you cbet 90%?

What's your current ATS from the BTN? CO?

What's your VPIP/PFR overall?

fx20736 said:

Couldn't you just as well bet to see if the Ace is a scare card to your opponent?

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That's bad logic. You're exceptionally happy to get called if the Ace scared the villain because it means you're likely way ahead. Likewise you don't want to bet if the Ace doesn't scare the villain because he'll call/raise with a better hand.

So: if it's a scare card and you check, it will scare him less and possibly get some bets for thin value called. If it isn't a scare card you save yourself a bet.

WVHillbilly said:

Your playing 2nl there are few observant opponents and if they are semi-intelligent you don't seem to have any concern that they are currently noting that you cbet 90%?

What's your current ATS from the BTN? CO?


What's your VPIP/PFR overall?

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You have a point about observant opponents.

If I am doing this right; ATS BTN is 29.2, CO is 15.6


At 2NL (14,360 hands) my VPIP/ PFR is 12.99/ 8.55 but recently I have tried to be much more aggressive.

Recent sessions VP/ PFR are:

11.90/ 9.92
11.98/ 10.51
10.95/ 9.85
11.39/ 9.64

That's pretty nitty so cbetting 75% is probably fine but 90% is still way too much imo.

You really could stand to open up you're BTN and CO stats a bit. Add in those Ax hands on the BTN that you've been folding. Also look for spots were you have a nitty player to your left and then open up your CO range to basically match your BTN range in those situations. Having a nit to your left is like having 2 BTNs and is very profitable. People probably love sitting to your right. I know I would.

WVHillbilly said:

That's pretty nitty so cbetting 75% is probably fine but 90% is still way too much imo.

You really could stand to open up you're BTN and CO stats a bit. Add in those Ax hands on the BTN that you've been folding. Also look for spots were you have a nitty player to your left and then open up your CO range to basically match your BTN range in those situations. Having a nit to your left is like having 2 BTNs and is very profitable. People probably love sitting to your right. I know I would.

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So, unless you have a read on an opp in the blinds as super aggro you are opening any A from the Button?

Yep, no problem at all, you can add quite a few hands if the players in the blinds are very loose. And against 2 nits, you can pretty much steal with ATC from the BTN.

My opening range with two standard players in the blinds would look something like this : PP, Ax, K8o+, K6s+, Q8s+, Q9o+, J8s+ and any other 2 broadway cards. I play 2nl too btw.

With tighter players I add a SC or two. With looser players I add some Kx and Qx hands.

wrung24 said:

Yep, no problem at all, you can add quite a few hands if the players in the blinds are very loose. And against 2 nits, you can pretty much steal with ATC from the BTN.

My opening range with two standard players in the blinds would look something like this : PP, Ax, K8o+, K6s+, Q8s+, Q9o+, J8s+ and any other 2 broadway cards. I play 2nl too btw.

With tighter players I add a SC or two. With looser players I add some Kx and Qx hands.

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cool, thanks for the input