Taking All Of Your Time In Tournaments

KLock7 · Oct 21, 2007

I've been trying this thing lately, let me know what you think about it.

When I play in big MTTs, I like to take as much time as possible, every hand. It doesn't matter if I know what I'm going to do(call, raise, fold...) or not. I think there's a lot of advantages to doing this but it seems like a lot of people don't seem to understand.

First, it's a lot harder for your opponents to judge the strength of your hand. A lot of the time all you have to go on is betting pattern and the time it takes for the decision, and if you take away the timing part, that's a lot of their read.

Next, it allows others in the tournament to bust out. Sometimes it's the difference between cashing and going out just before.

Third, it frustrates people. I don't know how many times while I was doing this that I've been verbally attacked by more impatient players at my table. I always take it as a compliment if I can get people pissed off because it might throw them off their game or make them call in a situation they shouldn't just to try and bust me.

Lastly, if I have a decent/big stack. For example, instead of getting 25 hands per hour, it cuts it down drastically. Now people with the smaller stacks have to pay a lot more per level, definately a big advantage.

Now, I know it's not the nicest thing to do, but this is poker, it's not about being nice! Let me know what all of you think. Am I an asshole? Or a genius?

beechleaf · Oct 21, 2007

tyming

i love it im going too try your idea with great feelings that you are very cleaver thank for the info

Cheetah · Oct 21, 2007

If you are short stacked and trying to sneak in the money, especially in qualifiers, it is justified to slow down. In all other cases, I disagree with you.

When the blinds are small, when you slow down, you have fewer opportunities to see cheap flops with potential.

When the blinds are big, and you are short-stacked and far from money, you let people at other tables to get ahead of you.

Finally, worse of all, when you have a big stack, slowing down to make it "more expensive" for short stacks is absurd. If you are near the money, you are in fact helping them. Also, in order to be "expensive" for them, someone has to be taking their blinds. This is usually the job of the big stack. When you slow down, you deny yourself the opportunity to steal from them.

KLock7 · Oct 21, 2007

How do you deny yourself the opportunity to steal from the blinds? Just because you take your time doesn't mean that you can't bluff or steal. Also, if you do this throughout the tournament, you wouldn't really have to stall when close to the money because of all the time you'll have "banked" on the way there.

Cheetah · Oct 21, 2007

KLock7 said:
How do you deny yourself the opportunity to steal from the blinds? Just because you take your time doesn't mean that you can't bluff or steal. Also, if you do this throughout the tournament, you wouldn't really have to stall when close to the money because of all the time you'll have "banked" on the way there.

Say you are stalling and steal twice per round and that nets you an average profit of 2BBs. If you don't stall, rounds are quicker, say 2 times quicker. In the same time, you complete 2 rounds for a profit of 4BBs. Since the rest of the tables don't care what you do, you are denying yourself profit by stalling when a big stack.

I have no idea what you are talking about "banking" time.

KLock7 · Oct 21, 2007

With the talk about stealing the blinds, it's not as if you're going to be stealing every single round, so I don't get how you mean you'd net double the blinds because you play double the rounds. And by "banking" time, I mean that add up all the time you stalled for during the whole tourney. If you can even add like 15-30 minutes just from doing this, that might be the difference that you need to cash.

Dorkus Malorkus · Oct 21, 2007

If you are a winning player it's +EV to get as many hands in as possible to maximise the number of chances you get to apply your edge.

Plus stalling is incredibly douchebaggish.

KLock7 · Oct 21, 2007

I understand what you're saying Dorkus. I guess I should've said that it was more meant for freerolls than anything else. You know how those are a crap shoot more often than not. Plus you have to weed your was through so many people just to make a little.

I usually end up either playing a few at a time or playing solitare while i'm playing too so it doesn't bother me doing it. I know a lot of people would agree with you on the douchbaggery part of it, but that's just part of the mindgames.

Cheetah · Oct 21, 2007

To win any money in any tournament (even freerolls), you have to have a +EV on your play just to keep alive, never mind getting a big stack. When you "bank" time, your EV=0 during that time, but the blinds keep going up, so your stack get's smaller as a result of stalling.

The side effect is that people at your table are also hurt, because they too get less time to play(compared to other tables), which means on average, the entire table falls behind other tables(where more players are eliminated, more tables combined and more chips per table accumulated).

As I mentioned earlier, if you have accumulated enough chips to barely get in the money, and this is important to you, then stalling is a valid strategy. It still hurts the table as a whole, but it mostly hurts the bigger stacks in this case. But they are hurt because you expect to assure a small win for yourself. That's OK. But when you are stalling all the time, you are hurting everybody at the table including yourself, and that is just pointless.

pigpen02 · Oct 21, 2007

Good players want to get as many hands in as they can. You are saying you are not a good player and just happen to luck out and get a bigger than normal stack. Perhaps in time you will get better.

DaFrench1 · Oct 21, 2007

I happen to think that there is a time and place where stalling tactics are valid. However, I think your overkill use will hurt only you in the long run. The decision making disguise is good, but using just half the time or a quarter of the time before your action will have the same effect.

NoMem · Oct 21, 2007

Wouldn't you be putting yourself and your table at a disadvantage, compared to other tables? They are playing more hands giving them the chance to build bigger stacks than anyone at your table. Then, when anyone from your finally does get moved to one of the other, they are short-stacked and at an disadvantage. Just seems like you're digging your own grave and jumping into it, not to mention dragging the rest of your table with you.

muddawgg · Oct 21, 2007

i think if you are close to the money you can back in by stalling. doing it the whole time is annoying..if you piss off to many people they could call you at the end and check you down knocking you out

Egon Towst · Oct 21, 2007

Dorkus Malorkus said:
If you are a winning player it's +EV to get as many hands in as possible to maximise the number of chances you get to apply your edge.

^^ this.

DaFrench1 said:
Imaking disguise is good, but using just half the time or a quarter of the time before your action will have the same effect.

^^ and this.

ChuckTs · Oct 21, 2007

Dorkus Malorkus said:
Plus stalling is incredibly douchebaggish.

^^^^

royalburrito24 · Oct 21, 2007

I believe that taking your time while you play is advantageous not because you are stalling and waiting for people to get out, but because it helps you think about what your hand, about what you are going to do if certain things happen, and it really clears your mind.

stalling pre flop if you know you are going to fold is just a d-bag thing to do, and I believe that stalling is against the rules on some poker sites, but i do not know.

all in all, make your decisions with clear and concise reasoning, try and accumulate as many chips as possible.

stalling is stupid.

IamBP · Oct 21, 2007

I do enjoy employing this technique on occasion. One reason is because it does make everybody at the table mad and can cause them to do something they shouldn't or wouldn't normally do. This strategy was actually recommended to me by a friend's dad who for a time was a professional poker and did well. He has used this strategy since he started playing online.

Genso Hikki · Oct 21, 2007

I agree with those who said stalling for the sake of stalling isn't the smartest thing in the world to do simply because you are cutting down on the number of hands YOU get to see.

I know a lot of players stall on purpose in order to frustrate the rest of the table. It doesn't work on me, because how long it takes a perpetual staller to make up his mind has no effect whatsoever on how I'll play my hand. Now, if it's a player who doesn't normally take a lot of time, that gets my attention.

horghe · Oct 21, 2007

KLock7 said:
I've been trying this thing lately, let me know what you think about it.

Lastly, if I have a decent/big stack. For example, instead of getting 25 hands per hour, it cuts it down drastically. Now people with the smaller stacks have to pay a lot more per level, definately a big advantage.

Doesnt this make it cheaper for them because they dont have to pay as many blinds? if you play quicker the blind comes back to them quicker and they have to pay it, then you can apply pressure and soon their stack wont resemble much....just how i see it.

ayasak · Oct 21, 2007

NoMem said:
Wouldn't you be putting yourself and your table at a disadvantage, compared to other tables? They are playing more hands giving them the chance to build bigger stacks than anyone at your table. Then, when anyone from your finally does get moved to one of the other, they are short-stacked and at an disadvantage. Just seems like you're digging your own grave and jumping into it, not to mention dragging the rest of your table with you.

agree! slowing down the table really discounts your chances of building a stack especially in the first hour of freerolls where people are just shoving almost every hand, you kinda "short stack" yourself when the table breaks

just my 0.02cts

ol_sin · Oct 22, 2007

this is just one of those ideas that is really bad. all of your reasoning is off.

KLock7 said:
First, it's a lot harder for your opponents to judge the strength of your hand. A lot of the time all you have to go on is betting pattern and the time it takes for the decision, and if you take away the timing part, that's a lot of their read.

If anybody is trying to judge the strength of your hand based on how long its takes for you to respond, then you want to play as many hands with them as possible because they obviously don't know what they're doing.

KLock7 said:
Next, it allows others in the tournament to bust out. Sometimes it's the difference between cashing and going out just before.

it allows others in the tournament to bust out, and others to gain more chips while you are sitting stagnant.

KLock7 said:
Third, it frustrates people. I don't know how many times while I was doing this that I've been verbally attacked by more impatient players at my table. I always take it as a compliment if I can get people pissed off because it might throw them off their game or make them call in a situation they shouldn't just to try and bust me.

it always makes me laugh when players justify themselves by saying that pissing others off throws them off of their game. this IS assholish. hehe. it is totally cool to think of ways to throw others off of their game, and it is definitely true that when somebody is off of their game, they are more likely to bust. but, and especially in this case, pissing of an entire table full of people isn't your best bet. while its bad idea, as an individual, to go after someone, YOU don't want several people gunning for you.

KLock7 said:
Lastly, if I have a decent/big stack. For example, instead of getting 25 hands per hour, it cuts it down drastically. Now people with the smaller stacks have to pay a lot more per level, definately a big advantage.

I see what you're saying here. Since they have less time to play a hand, the blinds are going up and they have less opportunity to play anything. This isn't a bad point, but the cons outway the pros. You aren't giving yourself a chance to play more hands and get more chips or learn about the other players. In the beginning of the tournament you should worry more about surviving and lasting than about how to get your opponents to lose. At the end, when everyone is at one table, you are still not doing much for yourself. Either you play slow and make other people wait to play a hand or you play at your normal speed and give yourself the opportunity to play more chips.

As a chip leader, your goal to should be to play as many small pot hands at possible, and you aren't letting yourself do that.

As a short stack, your goal to should be to find a hand to put it all in on, and you aren't hindering their ability to do that.

In the end, you're making harder on yourself.

ratmantoo · Oct 24, 2007

Stalling is not beneficial for anyone unless your game is not up to par.

We WANT to see lots of hands and the more see the more chances we have of making money. Loosing the blinds every orbit without having a playable hand is possible but highly unlikely...and we can still bluff.

Also the more hands we see the easier it is to read your opponent. I would rather have played dozens of hands against an opponent than only one or two and have to make a tourney life threatening call without having some idea of their play.

Last night I was watching a table and one person was begging people to stall to get higher in the payout. Bloody stupid because with two tables remaining the other table had to wait for them to finish. However this did provoke some players to target them and make real foolish bets...so maybe it was a strategy.

All in all stalling hurts everyone at your table yourself included.

Insomniac_1006 · Nov 2, 2007

I've changed my mind, I used to think the more hands the better...
But have decided for the time being, that it's the quality, not the quantity that matters.

But that is just imho, and I m just learning how to play...I will muck to the experts.
cheers

unlucky79 · Nov 2, 2007

Just play cards either call quick or call slow. I have played many live home games that have taken forever to play a single hand so Im sure you stalling wouldnt effect my game any thats for sure. Patience is key in poker but you also want to see hands and have chances of making the big stack. By you pausing will only hurt your odds of achieving that. Good luck none the less and have fun at the tables.

jeffred1111 · Nov 3, 2007

This is so douchebaggish it is almost ridiculous. Why do people try this stuff out online while it would get them kicked in crotch live ? Stalling for the sake of stalling is like ratholing, string betting or angle shooting: trying to get an edge without actually, you know, improving your game.

Taking All Of Your Time In Tournaments

KLock7

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