Taking a year off uni to play poker

6

6bet me

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I'm seriously contemplating taking a year off uni to play poker. Let me tell you a bit about myself:

I'm a 21 year old guy, living in Melbourne, Australia. I currently study full-time doing a Bachelor of Commerce and I work roughly 20 hours per week at a fast-food job which pays almost $20/hour. I live in a share apartment in a cheap suburb, which makes rent a lot more manageable for me. My living expenses are roughly $1500/month and that includes everything: rent, bills, food, random expenses, going out to bars/clubs with friends, etc. So basically: my workplace alone can cover all my living expenses, and that's excluding the money I get from my parents, the Centrelink benefits (welfare) I get from the government and the income I would make from poker.

I've always been strong at maths (I was the top maths student at my high school) and managed to transfer to the top ranked university in my country, due to having successful grades (high distinction average) in all my maths/statistics subjects at my previous uni. I'm currently studying Actuarial Science, which is similar to Finance but involves a lot more maths and statistics and can lead to jobs at insurance firms, at superannuation firms and at investment banks, all of which pay well.

I've also always loved strategy games and I used to be a hugely competitive chess player in high school, sometimes playing several hours a day on various sites like Chess.com, ChessCube, FlyOrDie, FunOrb, etc. I also used to go to a chess club weekly and play in tournaments whenever I had the time. I would read books on chess, watch chess videos on YouTube, analyse my chess games and post regularly in chess forums. Essentially, everything I did with chess I'm now doing with poker.

But to make a living off chess is much more difficult than poker. Firstly, there's less money floating around. Unless you're an elite grandmaster (ie. famous worldwide) or an author/coach, you're not going to make much income from playing chess. And secondly, to be great at chess requires you to be a child prodigy. Most top chess players had already shown talent at a young age (before the age of 10) and reached the peak of their career in their early 20's. I believe that poker is less exclusive than chess in terms of who is capable of becoming great at the game if they put in the time and effort.

In terms of poker: I learnt the rules of poker 12 months ago and used to play live $1/$2 at a casino and get crushed by the "sharks" (as I used to call them). I started reading strategy guides and learnt about playing TAG. After playing casually for 4 months and playing a bit of Zynga Poker, I signed up to pokerstars (8 months ago). I started off experimenting with various stakes and losing a bit, before I got semi-serious with micro stakes SnG's, Spin&Gos and MTT's, particularly hyper-turbo formats. I used to use a push/fold chart and was somewhat decent at the shove/fold game, but never built up a proper bankroll. Then after 4 months (so 4 months ago), I started playing 2NL 6-max zoom. For the first month, I was breaking even, then the next month I won $66 (33 BI), which was a 6.5bb/100 win rate over 50k hands, and I was ready to move up. So 2 months ago, I started playing 5NL and was losing at first, but now I'm a winning player at both 5NL and 10NL over 20k+ hands in each format. I feel that after another 50-70k hands grinding 10NL (which I could easily do in a month), I'll be ready (both in terms of bankroll and skill edge) to move up to 16NL.

I'm very ambitious and my goal is to become a winning 100NL player by the end of the year (currently a winning 10NL player). All the income that I earn from poker can be reinvested back into poker, which would make building up a bankroll and moving up in stakes much easier and less stressful. I would plan to play poker roughly 40 hours per week (along with 20 hours per week at my fast food job). I feel that I'm a hard-working guy and this is a realistic goal for me.

My plan would be to take a year off uni to play poker and see how things go. I would focus mainly on online poker (PokerStars), but I'd be willing to play live $1/$3 every once in a while, for a bit of variety. Ideally, I would return to uni in 2017 with a large bankroll and no financial stress. I'd be able to study full-time and play poker only on weekends. Perhaps after a year of full-time poker, I'd get somewhat bored of poker and would be more motivated for uni anyway. But for now, I want to play poker 7 days a week and become the best I can possibly be.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
T

Toomin

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You sound like you dont know what you want to do, see poker as a possible easy out, so lets give it a shot.

Finish school. Then play cards for a year if you want.

Edit:

I'm equally good at math, and i am great at reading people.

Once you find those people who are good at math(s), you will see variance rear her ugly head and snap at your bankroll.

I have a question, what happens if you take off, dont make enough money or lose money online, will your parents understand? Will you understand and be able to take a confidence hit? Im asking because these 2 things are actually important in the grand scheme of things.

edit again - Is 'maths' and 'learnt' an Aussie thing? Or is that just not knowing the english language correctly?
 
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6

6bet me

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You sound like you dont know what you want to do, see poker as a possible easy out, so lets give it a shot.

I know what I want to do and that's poker. And I don't see anything easy about it. I know that poker is tough nowadays - even just the micro stakes are difficult to beat on PokerStars - but I'm willing to put in the hard yards to make it. In fact, part of the thing that motivates me for poker is the fact that it's difficult to be successful at. I'm a very competitive guy and I want to challenge myself.

Finish school. Then play cards for a year if you want.
Finish school, first.

Wouldn't it make much more sense to give poker a shot whilst I'm still 21 and at the start of my degree? If I were to spend a year playing poker when I'm 25 and just graduated from uni, that would look much worse on my resume, surely. How would I explain to prospective employers that it took me a year after graduation to apply for a job because I was too busy playing poker? It would be much easier for me to explain that I experimented with various pathways during my youth, then came to the conclusion that I wanted to be an actuary and stuck with that for years afterwards.

I'm equally good at math, and i am great at reading people.

Really? I don't mean to sound arrogant, but until I see what mathematical problems you're capable of solving and how long it takes you to solve them, I can't take your word for that. You don't know what level I'm at and I don't know what level you're at, so neither of us can compare ourselves to the other person.

Once you find those people who are good at math(s), you will see variance rear her ugly head and snap at your bankroll.

I understand how variance works. I used to study a statistics major and I'm pretty good at analysing variance. That's why I'm not moving up in stakes until I have a minimum of 40 BI (and a minimum of 50 BI for 50NL+). Perhaps my confidence will take a hit if I go on a downswing, but I will try my best to constantly remind myself not to be results-oriented.

I have a question, what happens if you take off, dont make enough money or lose money online, will your parents understand? Will you understand and be able to take a confidence hit? Im asking because these 2 things are actually important in the grand scheme of things.

This is my career decision, not theirs. They've experimented with various things in their lives, some of which worked out and some of which didn't. They tried to start their own business at one stage and it failed. But you can't be too results-oriented. They did their best and I respect them for trying. At the end of the day, I'd rather try and fail than never try in the first place and spend the rest of my life asking myself "what if...".

Also, I feel that my parents are a bit ignorant about poker. I feel like the only way they'll understand this decision of mine is if I show them long-term results, so I'll let them know about it if things go well and I'll put it all behind me if things don't work out. Besides, I have a backup story: I'd tell them that I'm taking a year off uni so that I can work more hours at my fast-food job and try to get a promotion to manager, which is still true and still another thing I can achieve this year. It's not like I'll only be playing poker and nothing else. I'll still work at my job, I'll still go to the gym regularly to keep fit, and I'll still go out with friends every now and again.

edit again - Is 'maths' and 'learnt' an Aussie thing? Or is that just not knowing the english language correctly?

It's UK English, which us Aussies speak. Some examples of key differences between this and American English are:
Recognise -> Recognize
Apologise -> Apologize
Uni -> College
Maths -> Math
Dreamt -> Dreamed
Learnt -> Learned
Thongs -> Flip flops
Rubber -> Eraser
Technically, UK English has existed for far longer than American English, so you guys are the ones that have it wrong :p
 
S

Stone Cold Tom

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You seem to be so exited and passionate by this new poker experience. Anyway I think that you are still very young to make such a decision and that you should finish college first and try to find a 'real' job. Now I know that this is an answer that most parents will give you but why? You said that you are good at math, statistics, chess etc. So my question is Why not use that talent or gift to become something more 'legit'? There are a ton of other professions for you out there. You can still play poker during your studies. Maybe not that often as you would like to but still. That is my advice but you are a full grown man so the decision is yours. I don't want to sound like a pessimist but at the end of the day we all learn by our mistakes and we can't make a real progress if we don't make some along the way. But whatever you choose I wish you good luck.
 
TimovieMan

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Grinding too much poker can lead to getting burnt out. This can happen a lot sooner than you think (I know, I've been there).

If you're currently able to combine uni with a part-time job that gets the bills paid AND grind 50-70K hands per month, then frankly, I don't see any reason to quit uni, even if only for a year.

There's always the risk of making enough at poker to go "pro", sticking with that for two-three years (not finishing uni), and then getting slapped by another Black Friday and ending up with nothing.

Poker isn't a certainty, your degree is.


Try combining things as you have been doing. Build up a bankroll that will cover at least 6 months living expenses and at least 50 BIs (but preferably 100) for the stakes you want to play, and THEN give poker a shot.
But give it a sensible one: if you're still in uni when you're rolled like this, maybe go "semi-pro" first and quit the fast-food job for extra hours at the tables. See how that works.

If you really want to go full pro, I would advise doing so only AFTER you've gotten your degree. By then, you'll have a LOT more experience at different poker stakes, and will have a better handle on how much money you can actually make on average with poker (and see if you can become a "rakeback pro" which would take the edge off all downswings), and you'll have played for long enough to know whether or not the grind would lead to a burn-out.

Poker is a risk assessment game. Minimize the risk first, then maximize the profit. The same applies to life. Getting the degree first minimizes the risk. My advice would be to re-evaluate then.
 
fubarcdn

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I doubt if you will get the answer you want from any responsible adult including me.
Being a gambler is a tough life and the majority fail at it but there is a better way to test the waters than just taking a year off.
Why not stay in school and take the summer break to see if you are as good as you think you are. Use it as a test and your full time summer job.
If you can make $10,000US per month for the summer break then reevaluate your options and if you can't get back to school and get into something that will provide you security.
If you are good at math you will be able to gather the right stats and determine the success rate of poker players. Everyone 21 thinks they can be a pro so you are not unique.
 
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Jreece18

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It's UK English, which us Aussies speak. Some examples of key differences between this and American English are:
Recognise -> Recognize
Apologise -> Apologize
Uni -> College
Maths -> Math
Dreamt -> Dreamed
Learnt -> Learned
Thongs -> Flip flops
Rubber -> Eraser
Technically, UK English has existed for far longer than American English, so you guys are the ones that have it wrong :p

Preach it
 
B

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It is not for me to answer what to do. But what I've learnt throughout my life is follow your hart, your passion and joy. It will always result in a good outcome.

If you really want to then go for it and wish you all the best!
 
M

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If you do end up doing it, I hope you have a life other than poker and work. Other hobbies, having time for family/friends, etc. Work & poker will be 60 hours a week. Poker in my experience is very draining mentally, especially when your all-in EV is crap and you're on a huge downswing. Poker will consume you in a very bad way if you let it.

Good luck on moving up to 100NL! I hope you don't run as bad as I did recently when you're there.
 
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L

lukeellul92

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I'm going to go ahead and say do it.

BUT, here's what I want to say in regards to doing it:

Save 6 months worth of living expenses, and be prepared to lose your centrelink when they find out you're off uni for a year (im in Perth, so I know where you're at).

Taking a year off uni isn't too preposterous, heaps of people do it. I'm 24 and only just starting to look at bridging into uni!

IF you have proper bankroll, and living expenses covered, I'd say go for it!

End of your first year you might not go back to uni ever again. Who knows.
If you crash and burn, well it was only a year and you'll be 22... Big whoop!

The only other thing I can suggest is that, because you live in the poker capital for the southern hemisphere, maybe dabble in live as well if you can bankroll! Although I'd suggest flying up to sydney to do anything less then $2/$4 as 1/2 and 1/3 in Melbourne are actually terrible.
 
arty220

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I think you have to finish school first or play poker jointly with study.
 
B

Biznardian

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It is not for me to answer what to do. But what I've learnt throughout my life is follow your hart, your passion and joy. It will always result in a good outcome.

If you really want to then go for it and all the power to you
 
bitowl

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I currently study full-time doing a Bachelor of Commerce and I work roughly 20 hours per week at a fast-food job which pays almost $20/hour. I live in a share apartment in a cheap suburb, which makes rent a lot more manageable for me.

Lol this cracks me up as an american. Do whatever you want, you live in an actual first world country where it's impossible to fail.
 
Aaron Soto

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Stay in school man trust me.

I play poker live 1-3. And believe me.....you don't have what it takes to be making a living playing 1-3. Not yet anyway if ever. I found it funny how out the end you just so casually say, " I'll take time off uni and just play online but willing to try 1-3". 1-3 isn't something you just jump into and think your going to win ......... (trust me). Unless you have some endless supply of money. Stay at the lower stakes. And your talking about playing for 40 hours a week and working 20 hours a week.

What about studying? What about reviewing hands? What about learning strategy day in and day out. What about teaching your self the mental game of poker? How to handle a bankroll and a balance sheet? Poker isn't just "Poker" when you play as a job. It becomes exactly that. A job. It takes a lot of business practice and mental discipline that you would not believe.

I wish you the best really. You are a young guy. But if you do want to pursue Poker. Keep it within your BR. Maybe you do have what it takes to play 1-3 all I can tell you is Good luck man. Follow your dreams and do what makes "You happy".
 
dj11

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No one can take a year off from Uni. You may go back, but not with anything close to continuity. You will be changing your major when you go back. At your age you will be tempted by new stuff.

None of that is necessarily bad, could be great in fact. But you should plan to be dumping the current plan, because that will happen (has to happen) when you adopt this new plan.

By the time you get back to college, the world will have already automated actuaries. ;)
 
Poker Orifice

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Stay in school man trust me.

I play poker live 1-3. And believe me.....you don't have what it takes to be making a living playing 1-3. Not yet anyway if ever. I found it funny how out the end you just so casually say, " I'll take time off uni and just play online but willing to try 1-3". 1-3 isn't something you just jump into and think your going to win ......... (trust me). Unless you have some endless supply of money. Stay at the lower stakes. And your talking about playing for 40 hours a week and working 20 hours a week.

What about studying? What about reviewing hands? What about learning strategy day in and day out. What about teaching your self the mental game of poker? How to handle a bankroll and a balance sheet? Poker isn't just "Poker" when you play as a job. It becomes exactly that. A job. It takes a lot of business practice and mental discipline that you would not believe.

I wish you the best really. You are a young guy. But if you do want to pursue Poker. Keep it within your BR. Maybe you do have what it takes to play 1-3 all I can tell you is Good luck man. Follow your dreams and do what makes "You happy".

OP said he was considering playing live 1/3 EVERY ONCE IN AWHILE... so I'm wondering what post did you read... or perhaps it's your reading comprehension that sucks?

Also, can you PLEASE not use the word 'your' when you're actually meaning 'you're' (as in you are).
I could give you a few more examples but I'm not sure you're (< see that) going to get it because your (< there it is again, but look it is 'different' here) grammar seems to be lacking.


Matt,
You won't want to read my answer either. I was attending post-secondary education locally (Univ. transfer course, 1st & 2nd year, Eng., Psych, Chem., Bio., Math, etc.) with intentions of finishing 3rd & 4th yr in the city ~7hrs. from home. Unlike yourself, I had no clue of what I was going to do with the education (although I had a few thoughts... but mostly knew that inspiration & ideas would come my way as long as I continued to put one foot in front of the other). I was doing great in my first year & a half.

Some funding fell through for me when I was about to start into my next semester. A buddy of mine told me a crew he was on was hiring & I'd be making great union wages!
When I started at that job I was POSITIVE it was only going to be for 1yr. then I'd return to school (I loved school!... I was certain I'd be back).
That was more than 20yrs. ago.


Poker (in most cases) is best kept as a recreation or part-time (imo). I believe it can take alot of you and isn't anywhere near as glamorous as many seem to think it might be. Might be an idea to try talking to some players who've been playing (online) fullt-time for a few years?
 
Mr Sandbag

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I don't think you're going to find the "right" answer here. It's a decision only you can make. You gave us some insight into your life but it is still an incomplete picture and you're decision isn't made in a vacuum. Sure you can finish school first, but how much effort are you actually going to put into it if you're constantly thinking about "what if?" Likewise, taking a year off seems like a good idea, but are you actually going to go back to school in a year? I think a lot of people would find it difficult to go back to school and essentially quit full time poker if they had a successful year. Unfortunately, poker as a whole isn't "steady." Card rooms (both live and online) swing up and down and even die out. If you abandon school entirely, how confident can you be that poker will be there for you in 10, 15, or 20 years? I'm not saying one way is better than the other. Just wanted to give you some things to consider.

Also, how is live poker in your area? If there is a strong 1/3 and/or 2/5 game in the area you may want to consider putting more time into live. If the 1/3 game is similar to the "average" 1/3 game and there is an opportunity to move up to 2/5 eventually, there could be a lot more money in live than online.

One last thing...

But for now, I want to play poker 7 days a week and become the best I can possibly be.

Don't. Force yourself to take 2 days off per week from playing/studying. You'll burn out really fast and lose focus on other parts of your life (health, social, etc.). If you can't make enough money from poker by playing 40 hours per week, it probably isn't worth it.
 
Figaroo2

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Most expert poker players reckon it takes about 7 years of playing reviewing learning to become an expert poker player. I'd say that was about right I'm 4 years into my poker learning with a year as a fish before that, and honestly you're just starting.
I have done all the chess thing, secretary of my chess club and online everyday. Once I came back to poker I haven't touched a piece in 5 years. It gives you an analytical mindset but doesn't help you being the lying thieving snake you need to be to play great poker.
You have your whole life in front of you with plenty of time for poker. If you want to give it a shot I would strongly suggest doing it in the year after Uni. Get your studies out of the way first honestly you won't regret it. I also think it's too early get another half a million hands under your belt.
There's more to poker than maths and there's much more to life than poker.
(52 years in the university of life.)
 
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Poker Orifice

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Most expert poker players reckon it takes about 7 years of playing reviewing learning to become an expert poker player. I'd say that was about right I'm 4 years into my poker learning with a year as a fish before that, and honestly you're just starting.
I have done all the chess thing, secretary of my chess club and online everyday. Once I came back to poker I haven't touched a piece in 5 years. It gives you an analytical mindset but doesn't help you being the lying thieving snake you need to be to play great poker.
You have your whole life in front of you with plenty of time for poker. If you want to give it a shot I would strongly suggest doing it in the year after Uni. Get your studies out of the way first honestly you won't regret it. I also think it's too early get another half a million hands under your belt.
There's more to poker than maths and there's much more to life than poker.
(52 years in the university of life.)

Excellent post!!!
Matt I truly hope you read this ^ one over more than once!
 
P

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As a few people before me have said, taking a break from uni is a personal decision that only you can make, and it sounds like you have put some serious thought into what a year off could look like. Planning to keep your part time job shows that you are thinking practically and that you're not deluding yourself in expecting to live solely off of poker earnings (which, as others have mentioned, would be a risky assumption for anyone to make). If a friend came to me in your situation, I would advise him/her to take poker out of the equation and to first think about whether taking a break from uni is the right move. Not that I'm doubting your abilities, but what if playing poker just doesn't work out? Would you still be happy with your decision to take a year off?

When reading your post, I got the sense that you feel like you may need, or could benefit from, a year off from uni, and that relieving some of the financial burden could allow you to better focus on your academics. You mentioned that your job fully covers your living expenses with just part time hours, which means that you do have some room to experiment with poker; at the same time, you would be in a good position to accumulate money with or without poker (e.g. you could use the extra time from no class to take on more hours at work if poker doesn't work out). If you are responsible in managing your bankroll, set realistic goals, and have the discipline to walk away from poker if you are not meeting your prescribed outcomes, then I don't see much risk in at least giving full-time poker a try... Again, I think the critical question is, do you think taking a year off would be beneficial to you? From there, seems like it would just be a matter of creating a plan + a contingency plan, and sticking to it. :)
 
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6bet me

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So far, no one has addressed this concern of mine: wouldn't it look really bad on my resume if I took a year off immediately after graduating? How could I explain to future employers that it took me 12 months to find a job and that I didn't seek any graduate positions upon graduation? Wouldn't it be much easier to explain to future employers if my "gap year" came between first and second year university? I just feel that out of my entire life, from now (age of 21) until I hit retirement age (age of 70), this is literally the best year for me to make a decision like this. I will probably never get a chance like this again without ruining my career/future. This is especially true if I get married and have kids after I graduate. I don't want to be one of those 30 year old guys with a wife and kids but no stable income. I want to experiment around with an unstable income whilst I'm still young, and I want to increase my stability as I get older, rather than experimenting around and doing risky things later in life (ie. having a mid-life crisis). If I do screw up, wouldn't it be better to screw up early in life rather than later?

Living expenses aren't a problem for me because I'll be working enough hours at my fast-food job to pay for all my rent/food/bills, even if Centrelink does cut my pay completely. And even if I somehow can't pay my rent/food/bills, the worst case scenario is: I move back to my parents' house and bring my cost of living down to virtually zero dollars. Ideally I won't do this though, because I love my independence, but the option is there if I need it. I think that I have enough safety nets in place to make this work, even if everything goes wrong at once.

And many people have told me about how poker could go wrong, but no one has considered how uni might go wrong too. If I lose motivation for uni, I could fail some subjects. If I fail too many subjects, I could get kicked out of the university. And even if I do make it and graduate, there's no guarantee I'll get a job upon graduation, given how rough the economy is. It's not as if going to uni is my safety net that guarantees me a bright future. Anything can go wrong. Everything is a risk. I can't avoid risks completely, but I can do my best to minimise risks and come up with multiple backup plans, which is what I'm trying to do here.

Aaron Soto, you seemed to have misinterpreted me completely. I'm not planning to pay my rent/bills/food from my poker income; I have other income for that. And I'm focusing on online poker, rather than $1/$3 live poker. Plus my 40 hours a week of poker won't consist solely of grinding: there'll be days when I just review hands and read up strategy guides instead. Also, I believe that $1/$3 live is roughly equivalent to 5NL on PokerStars. It's my goal to be able to beat 100NL on Stars by the end of this year, so I don't think that the difficulty of $1/$3 live poker is going to be a problem for me.

In terms of live poker vs online: yes, the live games here are very good. I live walking distance away from the biggest casino in the Southern Hemisphere which hosts the Aussie Millions and always has several games running 24/7. There is even a $5/$10/$20 NLHE game ($2k buyin) that runs multiple times per week, as well as several $2/$4 and $5/$5 games running daily. Australians do not pay tax on gambling winnings and we don't tip the dealers either, which makes things even better for us, although our rake is a bit higher (10% rake capped at $15 for most games). So it would appear that live poker is perfect for me, but there are 2 problems: the first problem is variance. I don't have a $20k bankroll to support playing $2/$4 games regularly, even if I did feel that I could beat those games. And the second problem is my improvement rate: live poker is slow, you only see 30 hands per hour and you aren't able to track hand histories, which would really stunt my level of mental growth. I don't want to be one of those guys that becomes content grinding $1/$3 and never seems to move up in life. I am very ambitious and I want to move up as fast as possible, and I feel that online poker will help me improve at a much faster rate. I'll spend more time playing live poker once I have both the bankroll and the skill to beat $5/$5 live. Until then, I want to play mostly online and only play maybe one session a week of live $1/$3.

Thank you all for your responses. Most of you gave very helpful answers and I'm glad that you all encouraged me to put more thought into this because it's not a decision that I should be taking lightly. I still have a few more weeks to decide (before census date at uni), but right now, I'm leaning towards taking the "yolo" approach and giving it a shot. I'm very excited but also very nervous about this. I'm still willing to be talked out of it though.
 
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AlfieAA

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hi :)

What happens if you get good at poker and make enough money at the end of the year that convinces you to take another year off? ...it's very hard to plan a year in advance when things will be different than what they are currently...

What if you get burned out after 6 months and lose interest in the game...what then?

And what if you crush it and make lots of money...are you going to drop it all and go back to uni?

Things might go your way poker wise for 1,2,3,5 or 10 years but then things might take an opposite turn....there are thousands of possibilities that can happen that affects your whole life based on this one decision...

But then you could do the 'right' thing and go to and finish uni and still have things that don't work out....

So its up to you, but be aware that things continuously change.....
 
BentleyBoy

BentleyBoy

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Matthew. It sounds to me like you know what you want to do, but are unhappy to make the decision yourself.

This is one for you, and you alone.

If you are worried about what potential employers are going to think of your gap year playing poker, ask yourself this question. What would you think of your gap year playing poker and perhaps more importantly, why ? There you may find your answer. Are you happy to tell an employer that you had any gap year playing poker?

There are some good comments in this thread for you to consider, but perhaps you really need to consider what is most important, and why is one year of poker now important to you.

What will you do after six months if it all doesn't go according to plan, and having moved up levels you lose your bankroll? What will you do if it does go according to plan and in month 13 you have the chance to play at a serious level?

I would say you need to go with your own decision. It's your life and yours to make the most of or screw up. You have to carry the burden of consequence. Don't lay it on the rest of the poker community.

Best wishes

BB
 
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