Suited Connectors

insolitude · Sep 5, 2008

This topic is intended to complement our earlier set mining discussion. I'm curious to learn if there is a similar rule governing pocket suited connectors.

Let's say I hold a quality hand with great potential (like 98s) -- how do I determine what kind of PF raise I'm willing to call/raise to see the flop?

* Opponent(s)' stack sizes relative to the PF raise amount?
* Position?
* Number of players in the pot?
* Etc.

Feel free to discuss and/or point me to further reading.

TIA!

c9h13no3 · Sep 5, 2008

This is all referring to 6max.

- Deep stacks are paramount to any other consideration IMO.
- I'll 3-bet them if villain raises like more than 12-13% of their hands preflop, especially if he's a cutoff or button raiser & is positionally aware.
- I'll limp behind if there's already 2-3 limpers in the pot.
- And obviously I'll call a raise in position if opponent is nitty (less than 8% preflop raise).

Generally suited connectors like large stack to pot ratios. But if your opponent is raising 25% of his hands preflop, you don't really have implied odds, because he won't have a hand often enough to stack off with when you do his your straight/flush/two pair. So I like to 3-bet them as re-steal in those instances.

BelgoSuisse · Sep 5, 2008

c9h13no3 said:
- I'll limp behind if there's already 2-3 limpers in the pot.

Really? I would tend to raise ATC here. Limping at 6max is a sin I'm always willing to punish.

c9h13no3 said:
Generally suited connectors like large stack to pot ratios. But if your opponent is raising 25% of his hands preflop, you don't really have implied odds, because he won't have a hand often enough to stack off with when you do his your straight/flush/two pair. So I like to 3-bet them as re-steal in those instances.

When villain is raising 25% of his hands preflop and you have position, you can still call IMO, because although compared to a nit you loose on implied odds when you flop a good hand because he may not have a good enough hand to pay you off, at the same time you gain in the pots where you don't flop good, because you can outplay outplay him post-flop more easily as his average hand is weaker

c9h13no3 · Sep 5, 2008

BelgoSuisse said:
Really? I would tend to raise ATC here. Limping at 6max is a sin I'm always willing to punish.

What do you think is better? Stealing 50-75 cents in limps, or getting in a multi-way pot with a hand that plays awesome in multi-way, large SPR pot? I'll raise stuff like A9os, but I think suited connectors just play too well in multi-way small pots to neglect that.

BelgoSuisse said:
you can outplay outplay him post-flop more easily as his average hand is weaker

Why not just smash face pre? 3-betting does so much awesome stuff for us...

insolitude · Sep 5, 2008

Good stuff, thanks guys. Anyone have any advice tailored for FR?

BelgoSuisse · Sep 5, 2008

c9h13no3 said:
What do you think is better? Stealing 50-75 cents in limps, or getting in a multi-way pot with a hand that plays awesome in multi-way, large SPR pot?

when you overlimp, the only way you'll win money is when you connect to the flop heavily and some villain also does.

when you punish limpers, you win money when

1. they all fold preflop
2. someone calls preflop, flop comes high cards and villain folds to your cbet.
3. someone calls preflop, flop comes low cards and connects to your hand, but this is nicely disguised by your PFR and villains pays you off handily.

c9h13no3 said:
Why not just smash face pre? 3-betting does so much awesome stuff for us...

I also do from time to time, but if I did 3bet all the times I feel like it, i would soon become obvious that I 3bet really light. And I really love playing post flop in position against a bad LAG.

c9h13no3 · Sep 5, 2008

BelgoSuisse said:
when you overlimp, the only way you'll win money is when you connect to the flop heavily and some villain also does.

When there's that many villains, and it doesn't take much for them to stack off, and they have full stacks, its pretty profitable.

Example:
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cas...5nl-6-max-k2s-limps-now-wants-big-pot-125646/

Villain called with 34 in that hand. Villains consistently don't know the difference between stacking off in raised pots vs. limped ones. And if they're used to stacking off with top pair type hands, is it better to play a raised pot, or a limped one?

I personally have started limping a lot more. Its worth the -1BB investment to see a flop with multiple fish with a ton of money behind. Plus, really how much is villain thinking about your hand? Yeah, sure if like 2 thinking players limp, we can go ahead and raise. But for the most part, we're playing against fish, and they rarely even realize you have cards too.

BelgoSuisse · Sep 5, 2008

c9h13no3 said:
I personally have started limping a lot more. Its worth the -1BB investment to see a flop with multiple fish with a ton of money behind.

Well, it won't work if i sit at your table...

Also, even though i'm still only at 50NL, i try to develop a game that also works against decent players. I don't want to get too tailored to hunting low stakes fishes.

One great thing about raising with SC is that it's a natural defense against set miners. If you raising range is too narrowly restricted to high cards, it's extremely hard to deny proper implied odds to set miners. But if you start to raise with suited connectors and other such hands, then set mining becomes really hard against you, because when they don't hit they fold to your cbet and when do hit you never pay them off because mostly you have crap. And when you do pay them off, you're not drawing nearly dead like you would with TPTK or OP. You typically stack if you have at least a decent flush and/or oesd draw, so their EV is not that huge anyway.

lewis010 · Sep 5, 2008

i will give you a very good information.... AA vs 98 suit is 76% to 24% so imagine the good hand 98 suit is..... of course your stack and also the stack of your opponents will make you take a decision of how to raise with these hand... in my opinion with 98 i just call trying to see the flop with paying the less chips as possible... why??? because there are lots of outs to hit flush or straight but if the flop is horrible for you then you couldnt do any good combination with these 2 medium cards. dont betrayed yourself you will need at least 3 more suited cards or 3 cards to help you make a straight and its not so simple.... try to see the flop just calling and prey to be lucky enought to hit flush or straight.

bulldog2782 · Sep 5, 2008

I just want to make sure i am following everyone. So with suited connectors try and call in a multi way pot because of the great potential? but would you raise maybe 2x bb with suited connectors on the button with no other raises ahead of you? or do you check it to try and keep as many people in the hand as possible?

zachvac · Sep 5, 2008

c9h13no3 said:
What do you think is better? Stealing 50-75 cents in limps, or getting in a multi-way pot with a hand that plays awesome in multi-way, large SPR pot?

How often does a SC hand hit something worth stacking off? How often does villain also have a hand that stacks off when you hit (which sometimes is 3 to a flush, in which case they'll exercise pot control, and successfully if you limp)? We can raise and win 2.5 BBs the heavy majority of the time, or we can call and see a flop, losing 1 BB the heavy majority of the time, sometimes winning the 2.5-3 BBs (depending on if SB calls) and once in a blue moon winning >100 BBs. I'd argue that you're not winning their entire stack 5% of the time or whatever it is to make the math right here to make limping better than raising. Also raising with position often-times takes down the pot on the flop and also stacks some opponents, so the 5% goes up to like 10% or so. I don't believe we're getting a stack 1 every 10 times we limp with SCs. My math is all just rough estimates, but I definitely like the more aggressive approach.

Also, against good players, a limp looks like SCs or a PP. So they are not going to pay you off when they have a one pair hand and you want to stack. Granted there are enough fish that will, but as you play tougher and tougher opponents there are less fish willing to pay you off with one pair in an unraised pot.

azbo · Sep 6, 2008

Very interesting replies between belgo, c9h and zach. The preflop 3bet might take down more blinds but it leaves you exposed to a reraise. It's also 3 times more expensive and can get you trapped. Limping into the multi hand pot is going to give you a less expensive chance to make a hand that will still catch someone. In games where many people limp there are invariably donkey fish who will pay you off or at least much more often than 5% of the time. Leaving bodies in the pot preflop is the sureset way to have someone want to pay you off post flop when you hit. This can frequently be a double up hand at the cost of limping in. If you're frequently raising with this you also run the risk of having your continuation bet run into a real hand since the caller likely had a real hand to begin with. This really increases your exposure.

You all made valuable points but it's been my experience that C9's perception matches my own on how to maximize the ROI with this kind of hand. I would say making a big score 1 time in 10 is pretty close to what happens with these hands played right. You're talking about bigger preflop payouts more frequently but ignoring the increased cost and exposure. What do you do when you run into a big pocket pair who 3bets back at you when you 3bet him preflop?

BelgoSuisse · Sep 6, 2008

azbo said:
You all made valuable points but it's been my experience that C9's perception matches my own on how to maximize the ROI with this kind of hand.

what stakes do you play?

i my experience, your and c9's approach works at the very lowest stakes. But you will get run over by good aggressive players if you move up.

BelgoSuisse · Sep 6, 2008

azbo said:
What do you do when you run into a big pocket pair who 3bets back at you when you 3bet him preflop?

Well, first of all, i was advocating 2betting to punish limpers, not 3betting.

Secondly I don't care if I get 3bet out of the pot by a big pair. When I 2bet in late position, it's gonna be extremely rare that villains after me have a big pair, so it's fine to loose a few pots there.

The only problem comes when an observant player to my left start 3betting light because he knows that i 2bet light. Then I'll need to call some 3bets and try to outplay him postflop and start 4bet bluffing, but that's out of the scope of this discussion. Besides, if there's a really good player to my immediate left, chances are I'll just stand up and move to a better table.

c9h13no3 · Sep 6, 2008

You guys act like if we don't raise preflop, we have no fold equity on the flop. I'd actually think we have more FE against good players in limped pots, since they're less likely to stack off without a monster... Just because we don't raise doesn't mean we can't take it down by betting the flop when we don't have as much. And no 60/15 player is limping stuff like A7, and not giving you at least 2 streets of value when you hit.

c9h13no3 · Sep 6, 2008

zachvac said:
Also raising with position often-times takes down the pot on the flop and also stacks some opponents, so the 5% goes up to like 10% or so. I don't believe we're getting a stack 1 every 10 times we limp with SCs.

Well we flop a flush draw about 1 in 10 times. An OESD with about the same frequency. And we almost always have some sort of equity to play with (gutshot draws, a small pair, ect.). I think you underestimate how easy it is for SC's to hit the flop.

Not to mention that by raising, we get some players to fold who would otherwise be in the pot with us, so we lose some implied odds.

I realize conventional wisdom says to raise raise raise at 6-max. Hell, I raise more hands than you guys do I'm sure. I run 25/20 at my nittiest. But realize that the biggest thing bad players offer you is implied odds, and that often by raising we lose some of those.

zachvac · Sep 6, 2008

c9h13no3 said:
You guys act like if we don't raise preflop, we have no fold equity on the flop. I'd actually think we have more FE against good players in limped pots, since they're less likely to stack off without a monster... Just because we don't raise doesn't mean we can't take it down by betting the flop when we don't have as much. And no 60/15 player is limping stuff like A7, and not giving you at least 2 streets of value when you hit.

This is the reason I like raising SCs. Because we have too much fold equity on the flop and when we do flop a monster, we get way too many folds. We want FE when our hand isn't great, and we want better implied odds after we hit a monster. Raising preflop gives us both.

Dinei · Sep 6, 2008

I like to play with 89 connectors get over the same suit ...

more depending on the position of risking more pra ...

hugs

kuch522 · Sep 6, 2008

yea idk about pushing all in id prolly just limp in and see what i can catch on the flop..if it doesnt look good then get out saving you somem chips..if there is a raise before the flop i usually just take in thought how much the raise is compared to my stack and how i feel..if im feelin lucky then i go! if not then i just stay to play another day..

markpro · Sep 7, 2008

The main goal with suited connectors is to make a lot of money on straight of flush... and if you get lucky 2 pair or top pair in premium circumstances but i wont be considering this last one in the explanation. So since this hand isn't at all like ace king or ace queen which dont want limpers since they can catch, you want the total opposite. You want as many ppl in the hand as possible. Think of it this way... there are 7 ppl, your mid position. If you had ace king you would definitly raise so that someone doesnt get lucky (unless your varying your play). On the other hand you wanna usually just call with 89s. The pot will probably stay the same size anyway! If you just call, usually there are more limpers and the pot gets big with a lot of small callers. If you raise, only like 1 or 2 ppl will call and the pot will be big but with a few ppl. Now, if by any chance you catch a drawing hand or you caught it already on the flop, its more likely that someone has something to call your bet with or to bet (depending on the position, or how you are playing it.)

Now, back to your original question. If someone raises big to you, you are being beat preflop almost for sure... And another thing, its very unlikely that other ppl are going to call that big beat anyway so theres no big point in trying to catch against only like 1 or 2 ppl since in those rare occasions you will most likely scare them off. Now... there are some circumstances in which you can call that big bet. For example, if you want to catch someone offguard you can call or even put in a nice raise to make him think you have a great hand. If you miss the flop you can bluff and theres a good chance he will believe you. If you catch, you can pretend your bluffing and get more money! Win Win situation a lot of the times! Another situation could be if someone raises big and lots of ppl call! In this case most ppl would have high cards, and being so there are bigger chances of lower cards coming. And even if high cards come, if by chance you get the draw, no one will be expecting it, causing you to get even more money. These are the kind of hands that make the most money in poker.

Good luck at the tables!

azbo · Sep 8, 2008

BelgoSuisse said:
what stakes do you play?

i my experience, your and c9's approach works at the very lowest stakes. But you will get run over by good aggressive players if you move up.

I mostly play MTT tourneys, everything from freerolls to $100+10 buy in. I obviously adjust my play based upon the stakes. I also play a lot of $5 SnG both 6 player and 10 player. In my experience betting 2 x BB (assuming that's what you mean by 2bet) after a few people limped never moves anyone out of the hand and doesn't really punish anyone.

azbo · Sep 8, 2008

markpro said:
The main goal with suited connectors is to make a lot of money on straight of flush... and if you get lucky 2 pair or top pair in premium circumstances but i wont be considering this last one in the explanation. So since this hand isn't at all like ace king or ace queen which dont want limpers since they can catch, you want the total opposite. You want as many ppl in the hand as possible. Think of it this way... there are 7 ppl, your mid position. If you had ace king you would definitly raise so that someone doesnt get lucky (unless your varying your play). On the other hand you wanna usually just call with 89s. The pot will probably stay the same size anyway! If you just call, usually there are more limpers and the pot gets big with a lot of small callers. If you raise, only like 1 or 2 ppl will call and the pot will be big but with a few ppl. Now, if by any chance you catch a drawing hand or you caught it already on the flop, its more likely that someone has something to call your bet with or to bet (depending on the position, or how you are playing it.)

Now, back to your original question. If someone raises big to you, you are being beat preflop almost for sure... And another thing, its very unlikely that other ppl are going to call that big beat anyway so theres no big point in trying to catch against only like 1 or 2 ppl since in those rare occasions you will most likely scare them off. Now... there are some circumstances in which you can call that big bet. For example, if you want to catch someone offguard you can call or even put in a nice raise to make him think you have a great hand. If you miss the flop you can bluff and theres a good chance he will believe you. If you catch, you can pretend your bluffing and get more money! Win Win situation a lot of the times! Another situation could be if someone raises big and lots of ppl call! In this case most ppl would have high cards, and being so there are bigger chances of lower cards coming. And even if high cards come, if by chance you get the draw, no one will be expecting it, causing you to get even more money. These are the kind of hands that make the most money in poker.

Good luck at the tables!

Mark's point is very similar to mine. The more players you have in a hand the more implied odds you have with suited connectors. scaring people out of the pot with marginal raises seems like it puts more of your chips at risk for very little gain.

If you constantly raise my limps I'll eventually trap you and you're already chipping me in to call if it's just one more big blind.

BelgoSuisse · Sep 8, 2008

azbo said:
I mostly play MTT tourneys, everything from freerolls to $100+10 buy in. I obviously adjust my play based upon the stakes. I also play a lot of $5 SnG both 6 player and 10 player. In my experience betting 2 x BB (assuming that's what you mean by 2bet) after a few people limped never moves anyone out of the hand and doesn't really punish anyone.

No, 1bet is a limp, 2bet a raise, 3bet a reraise, ...

And when I 2bet, I typically bet pot, i.e. 3.5bb+1bb per limper.

What zach and I say mostly applied to cash games where you play a lot deeper than in tournaments. In tournies you indeed usually don't have any implied odds left if you raise, so you really don't have a choice: limp while you're deep enough, and fold as soon as M's become too low.

JiuJitsuBraz · Sep 8, 2008

Those are great hands, because they have high potential, and can kill many strong pairs and two pairs with the flush and strait shots they have. I personally try to limp in with them, although if I'm on the button, and noone's raised, I occasionally, to mix it up, might do a small raise to fatten up the pot. I'll call anywhere from 3-4x big blind.

azbo · Sep 11, 2008

BelgoSuisse said:
No, 1bet is a limp, 2bet a raise, 3bet a reraise, ...

And when I 2bet, I typically bet pot, i.e. 3.5bb+1bb per limper.

What zach and I say mostly applied to cash games where you play a lot deeper than in tournaments. In tournies you indeed usually don't have any implied odds left if you raise, so you really don't have a choice: limp while you're deep enough, and fold as soon as M's become too low.

That still doesn't seem like a solid strategy to me. If you put 5.5bb in the pot with 2 limpers you're giving me odds to call regardless. The only hand that I'm not getting pot odds vs is a big over pair, but my implied odds are huge against that situation. Plus after seeing you raise my limps more than once I'll limp with a big pair and come over the top. You might take a bb from me now and then but odds are good I'll take a much larger pot from you eventually.

Suited Connectors

insolitude

Rock Star

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

BelgoSuisse

Legend

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

insolitude

Rock Star

BelgoSuisse

Legend

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

BelgoSuisse

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lewis010

Rock Star

bulldog2782

Rock Star

zachvac

Legend

azbo

Enthusiast

BelgoSuisse

Legend

BelgoSuisse

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c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK

zachvac

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Dinei

Rising Star

kuch522

Rising Star

markpro

Enthusiast

azbo

Enthusiast

azbo

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BelgoSuisse

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JiuJitsuBraz

Rising Star

azbo

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