Suggestions for playing Mid-Pocket Pairs?

S'okay...I usually just call with middle pocket pairs 77-88-99. Earlier tonight I had pocket 9s & called from middle position, I was raised from behind by an OP who generally plays any face card combo so I called the raise as did another player who also plays any face card combo.

Flop = A.J.Q rainbow...I checked & the non-raiser OP bet 2x the pot so I folded (thinking someone got a straight)

Turn = 9

River = rag

Original raiser OP's hand = J.K off --> pair of Js
Winning OP's hand = Q.10 off --> pair of Qs

Did I make a mistake by not paying to see the turn when I would have gotten a set? I tend to do this A LOT...my is reasoning the hand is 70% over after the flop. Is this a hole in my play or I just seem to notice it more when I bail on a winning hand?

With mid-pocket pairs you have to assume you are going to lose unless:
1. The board is lower than your pocket pair and nobody has a pocket pair higher than yours.
2. You spike a set.
3. You represent a smaller hand.

The ace is a scare card to both of those hands. And with the information you told me about them pre-flop, you would want to misrespresent your hand to them. I would consider raising 3x the original raise preflop, which appeared to be a pot-builder. This indicates you have a strong hand, and the ace-scare card on the flop might put either of those hands on you having an ace.

Then, you'd have two choices. 1: Bet the flop, as action would most likely be checked to you. This could indicate you have the best hand and don't want to allow any draws to chase and hit (I would bet a little over half the pot in this case, up to about 3/4's the pot), or 2. Check the flop. Two players with non-top pair and inside straight draw would probably want to see a free card. I would personally go with betting the pot. Strong enough to deter any chasers, but not so much you are overbetting.

It all depends on your table, though. Either way, as long as you don't get raised (unlikely considering those ranges of hands), I'd expect you to take down the pot.

Folding on the flop was correct. Your odds of making a set on the flop are 7 to 1, if you don't hit then you are drawing to 2 outs or about 8%. The turn and river cards don't matter, you made the right decision on the flop and were done with the hand.


With mid-pockets pre-flop you mostly want to keep it fairly cheap, but I'd still put in a raise even from EP to build a pot that will make it more likely I can stack someone when I hit so a 3x BB raise is about right. In LP I'd either call a raise or if people have just limped I'll make a raise to take control of the hand (raise enough to get rid of most of the limpers). By doing this I'd be set mining from EP/MP and in late position I'd be taking down the pot a lot more often than I actually hit. You've got to be careful re-raising though because you can isolate your hand against bigger pairs.

Thank you both for your input, it’s greatly appreciated!

I tend to be conservative IRL & that carries over into my game whether online or b&m. Also, in b&m I play Limit (aka no fold’em) Hold’em rather than NLH so decision making has a narrower scope. My boyfriend plays b&m NLH & has been trying to coach me to be more aggressive -- raise more & represent or bluff more to control the pot (which I tend to do from the button but not from earlier positions). I’m trying to discipline myself to have a solid poker foundation (vs what I see on tv) & further build my skills from there…I have the tight play down just gotta work on the aggressive part more.:icon_thum

I like to raise the pot if I am first to enter when I have a mid-pair. I will vary the bet based on my position and hope to get info on those ahead of me by the way hey call/raise. If I am reraised, i will likely fold (depending on the situation). If you limp or allow others to limp, you are asking for trouble, IMHO. A made pair is a good hand and even if the other guy hits a J or Q, the A is still out there. By betting preflop, you have control of the hand. If you make a continuaion bet, it puts your opponent to a serious decision, even if they hit the Q holding a K. Will they chase for a better hand or believe you already have them beat with an A or set of J's or what...If they come back over the top with a set, two pair, broadway, or a dink bluff, you likely must fold, but at least you would know. Odds are they would fold to the aggressive play. I think your mistake was just calling. If you were calling the BB, what I said applies. Calling a player's raise that acts before you would be different. If they min. raise, maybe you reraise to see if they are stealing or fold if you think they are serious. Calling put's you in a bad spot when overs to your made pair fall.

Thanks for your insight JMTalbert, it's greatly appreciated.

You have a valid point, I should have raised vs call from the start of the hand esp since I had established a tight table image.

I was reading the poker terms on the Learning Poker forum & apparently I'm a nit? Gonna work towards being a reformed nit...

i would only call with a mid pair like that prelfop, in early levels of a SNG, or in some stages of a tournament, in a cash i generally like to raise with them.. opens up some bluffing opportunities..

I agree with the fold as well. The hand is trouble from the get go. Pick a better spot.

I woulda raised PF to limit the field (only 9s and up). After that, with that board, you have to fold. Just because a 2 outer showed up on turn doesnt mean it is correct to call here, forget the times you woulda caught trips etc. If 2 outs is 5% or so, you will lose money on a call here 95% over the course of your poker life.

Pocket 9s 2x today on the button with diff results:

1st--From the button raised 3x the blind behind 2 callers
Flop = 3.K.9 rainbow
MP bet...LP raised...I called...MP called
Turn = 3 (giving me a full house)
MP checked...LP bet...I raised...MP folded...LP shoved all in
Put LP on 2 pair or set of 3s...called (bigger stacked than LP)
River = rag
LP had K.Q (for 2 pair) & was KOed out of of tourney

2nd--MP raised 3x the blind...LP called...I called from the button
Flop = 2.5.7 rainbow
MP bet 1.5 pot...LP folded...I called (put MP on A.K or A.Q or Ax)
Turn = A
MP checked...I bet...MP check raised...I folded (& lost 1/3 of stack which had already been crippled from prior hands A.K/A.Q had been no good @ this table for me)

I'm struggling to develop a reliable set of moves with middle pairs as well. I think the advice above will be very useful for the games I aspire to be playing in. Less so in the games I'm actually playing in right now. My perception is that the more unsophisticated your oponents are, the more dangerous middle pairs are to play.

I'm playing in low buy-in MTT's (freerolls, micro entries, up to $2 buy-ins) where the play is typically loose and passive. In these games, 2-3 BB raises are not respected. You get called by a wide range of hands including any two face cards, face card-rag suited, any connector, any ace, any pair. A reraise could mean a monster pair or A-J suited or 5-5. Play is usually passive in these games, and it's not uncommon to have 3-5 limpers, so you can see flops cheaply. Unfortunately, that means almost every pot is multi-handed and any flop with an overcard is dangerous.

What I'm doing to survive early in the low buy-in MTTs is this. Throw away low pairs (2-2 thru 5-5, even 6s and 7s on tables with aggressive and/or crazy players behind me) preflop from anywhere, most of the time. Limp with low pairs on rare occasion from LP; no one in these games respects a cut-off or button raise, save your money and don't make them.

With middle pairs (7-7 through J-J in the "kiddie" games), I try to be invisible: see the flop cheaply, keep the pot small. If there are limpers ahead of me, I'll limp along with the crowd, which often works in these games. If the pot is unopened, I'll limp early or raise 2BB middle-late. In multi-way hands, if the set doesn't hit or there are overcards (most flops) I'm done putting money in. I've had very poor luck trying to represent a bigger hand by raising pre-flop in these low buy-in games; I end up getting called down by opponents who will not fold A-3 once their A flops.

If I do hit the set, I try to stay focused and watch for straight and flush draws. I know the prevailing wisdom is to make the chaser pay to hit his flush, but at this level of play, a pot-sized bet doesn't scare off a meathead, at least not early in the tournament. I'll make small value bets as long as the board justifies it. Later, when the quality of play picks up, I might be a little more aggressive with a made set.

I'm looking forward to the day when my bankroll lets me play middle pairs against opponents who outplay me after the flop because they're tough, rather than outdraw me on the flop because they think A-6 offsuit is a good starting hand.

beedee

That second hand, I believe you played wrong. You called when you had the best of it and bet out when you had the worst of it. If you put your opponent on A-K or A-Q and your made pair covers the board you are wrong to not re-raise here. You're only beat by tens or better, two pair, or a sneaky set.

When the flop comes and you think you are way ahead with a hand that isn't likely to improve, yet is still vulnerable. A T,J,Q,K, or A falls you may not have the best hand any more. And I think you were wrong to not reraise. A lot of times AK or AQ will bet out on a garbage flop to see if their hand is best. A proper play will be to put your opponent on a hand, if it missed, reraise them. and punish them if they try to make a play on your stack.

My strategy for mid pockets is quite simple....

EARLY PHASE OF THE TOURNAMENT :

If u are in early position, just call...

If u are in middle position:
no raise in front of you = call
2 or more raise in front of you = fold

If u are in late position:
no raise in front of you = raise
1 raise in front of you = call
2 or more raises in front of you = fold

MIDDLE PHASE :

Early position : call

Middle position:
If no one raises : raise
If one raises : call
If more than one raises : fold

Late position:
if no one raises: raise
if one raises : call
if more than one raises : fold


LATE PHASE :
early positon: fold
middle position, if no raise : call
middle position, if one or more raises : fold
Late position, if no one raises : allin
Late position, if one or more raises: fold

spiderman637 said:

My strategy for mid pockets is quite simple....

EARLY PHASE OF THE TOURNAMENT :

If u are in early position, just call...

If u are in middle position:
no raise in front of you = call
2 or more raise in front of you = fold

If u are in late position:
no raise in front of you = raise
1 raise in front of you = call
2 or more raises in front of you = fold

MIDDLE PHASE :

Early position : call

Middle position:
If no one raises : raise
If one raises : call
If more than one raises : fold

Late position:
if no one raises: raise
if one raises : call
if more than one raises : fold


LATE PHASE :
early positon: fold
middle position, if no raise : call
middle position, if one or more raises : fold
Late position, if no one raises : allin
Late position, if one or more raises: fold

Click to expand...

IMO this is a very passive way to play these hands. Most opponents will notice this and they will make you pay to play, so you'll either be folding preflop after posting a bet, or check/folding the flop when you don't improve. If it were me, in EP, especially UTG, I am folding most small pairs and raising the rest. In MP, I will raise most pairs, and in LP all pairs are playable. This strategy also needs adjustments if there has been lots of 3-betting (i.e. fold more).

I do like that you suggest you open up your range as the tournament goes on. A lot of people do the opposite (which is why we change gears). Still, I'd say it's very important to play them aggressively, even more so than while deepstacked. Otherwise, just fold them. It's not profitable to set mine late in tourneys when M's are low.

Lemme know if you have any questions, I haven't gone into a lot of detail cause I gotta run off to class...

cjatud2012 said:

IMO this is a very passive way to play these hands. Most opponents will notice this and they will make you pay to play, so you'll either be folding preflop after posting a bet, or check/folding the flop when you don't improve. If it were me, in EP, especially UTG, I am folding most small pairs and raising the rest. In MP, I will raise most pairs, and in LP all pairs are playable. This strategy also needs adjustments if there has been lots of 3-betting (i.e. fold more).

I do like that you suggest you open up your range as the tournament goes on. A lot of people do the opposite (which is why we change gears). Still, I'd say it's very important to play them aggressively, even more so than while deepstacked. Otherwise, just fold them. It's not profitable to set mine late in tourneys when M's are low.

Lemme know if you have any questions, I haven't gone into a lot of detail cause I gotta run off to class...

Click to expand...

Yeah i agree with u that adjustments are always needed in poker.
This post i made only for ametuers who want a basic start with playing mid pocket pairs...

spiderman637 said:

Yeah i agree with u that adjustments are always needed in poker.
This post i made only for ametuers who want a basic start with playing mid pocket pairs...

Click to expand...

I suppose it's not a bad skeleton on how to play mid pairs, as long as it has the disclaimer that adjustments almost always need to be made (which you do in your reply ). I would still recommend personally being more aggressive with them, while not playing them tricky or getting married to them.

I would say your fold is the correct decision. Okay you hit this time but you are only going to hit trips about 1 in 8 times.

Thanks to everyone who has provided suggestions...it's greatly appreciated!

I'm really liking the framework provided by spiderman637 :icon_thum ...I can use this as a guideline & make adjustments accordingly (now just gotta figure out what accordingly consists of...lol).

Today on FT was dealt pocket 7s in the cutoff. Raise from EP & all in from MP (we all had about 1800 chips)... I folded.

EP had A.J off
MP had A.Qs

Flop = 8.7.7
Turn = K
River = 9

I know I made the right choice by folding pre-flop but rats, rats, rats I felt a little stab to the heart & have been repeating my mantra 'Maximum Value with Minimum Risk' since then...heavy sigh.

You made the right decision after the flop. I like to bet my mid pairs, maybe 60% of the time, to see where I stand, preflop. If you have a handle on the players who call or raise its time for slowing down and think. After flop, all big cards, time to give it up. Although, once in awhile a C bet will work against the guy who is calling everything. Good luck

Pocket 9 update:

6-handed SNG

Pocket 9s 2 seats from the button...called

SB completed
BB checked

Flop = 2.9.3 rainbow

SB bet 4x the blind
BB raises 8x the blind
I push all in...I dominate any other set & if 2 pair is looking for a boat I'll still dominate

SB = A.9 off
BB = 2.3 off

Turn = A

River = 8

I'm #1 in the tourney (ok, so it only lasted 5 min but still...lol)

It seems as though mid-pp fair better 6-handed?