"Subpar" line "correct?"

Kind of a strange thread title, but I didn't know another way to put it. Anyway, I play 1/2 NL live. Recently, I was at a rare table that included at least six really good, solid, skilled players. I contemplated a table change, but I was having fun and chose to stick around and hopefully learn a few things despite being "out of my league."

I had been playing really tight up to this point and had been rather card dead for a large portion of the night, so I was seeing a really low percentage of flops and everyone knew it. I also had not 3-bet pre at any point thus far. Effective stacks are $200.

I pick up QQ in MP. UTG raises to $12. UTG+2 calls. I call. CO calls. BB calls.

I know 3-betting pre is the best move with a hand like QQ. But am I actually better off flatting? I figured there were two ways to go: flat pre and play the hand very cautiously postflop in a multiway pot OR 3-bet preflop and risk being exploited because my range could quite easily be narrowed down to big pairs by almost anyone at the table. At any standard fishy 1/2 game, I'd 3-bet and not worry too much about being exploited by the weak player pool, but this was an exceptionally strong table.

Thoughts?

I employ the same logic if against players I know well and vice versa. It is impossible to get paid when your cards are pretty much known.

Was this an exceptionally loose table? I note there ended up being four callers to the UTG raise, which seems really odd when there's a UTG raise at a strong table. I mean, your call gave CO and BB the pot odds to call too, but it still sounds pretty fishy.

Speaking of fishy, had UTG established a rep as a donkey or maniac? If s/he had, then isolating him/her with a shove seems like the best option unless his/her stack was really small. If not, ya gotta wonder why a solid player would raise UTG unless his/her range against your QQ (teehee I said QQ) was pretty solid as well.

Maybe I am the donkey here, but I either shove or fold were I you.

pisant said:

Was this an exceptionally loose table? I note there ended up being four callers to the UTG raise, which seems really odd when there's a UTG raise at a strong table. I mean, your call gave CO and BB the pot odds to call too, but it still sounds pretty fishy.

Speaking of fishy, had UTG established a rep as a donkey or maniac? If s/he had, then isolating him/her with a shove seems like the best option unless his/her stack was really small. If not, ya gotta wonder why a solid player would raise UTG unless his/her range against your QQ (teehee I said QQ) was pretty solid as well.

Maybe I am the donkey here, but I either shove or fold were I you.

Click to expand...

Exceptionally loose overall? No. There was one player who was left to act behind me who was SUPER LAG, and there was one who called before it got to me who was pretty nitty. Everyone else was semi-loose but not fishy. Hand-reading skills were pretty good overall throughout the table. That's why I didn't want to 3-bet. It'd practically give my hand away. I was prepared to play a multiway pot and to fold to any significant action if it meant my hand would be more concealed.

-- I've been playing 1/2 since 2006 and never seen a table with 6 good players
-- I 3-bet here unless the plan is to back-raise over a squeeze from SUPER LAG(s) because I like money

I think flatting here is only good if you thinking super-lag player behind is going to squeeze more than 80% of the time.

I think just 3betting to 28. Yes most of the time players will read you as super strong because of your image but I some of the time that won't matter. If they know you are strong, they are more inclined to play their medium strength hands (suited connectors, small-med pairs, picture cards) cause they think if the hit the flop hard enough they can stack you. Also, some players won't believe your raise as they might think you are just trying to take advantage of your image.

Even if you don't get any action, not bad to win a small pot there and build a little confidence and increase the stack by $15.

Gl in future games.

I'm going to have to agree with pisant that having five players call a 6x raise seems exceptionally loose. While it's only $12, 6x is a pretty strong opening raise relative to the blinds. If this is the type play that has been typical at this table, then I definitely wouldn't have let action get past me without reraising. In fact, even if I didn't have any significant expectation of anyone calling behind me, with a raise and a caller in front of me, I'm going to be want to try to isolate one of them. Q-Q is not the be all to end all, so I'm not going to reraise from 6x to all-in for 100x. However, I do think it is well worth a 3-bet.

As for defining the strength of your hand or having your range narrowed down, if you've been playing as tight as you say, then the table should already be putting you on a narrow range. What you really need to be concerned with is limiting the flop to as few players as possible, ideally you and one other. You need to be making the statetement, by 3-betting, that you are strong here and that anyone with a speculative type hand needs to get out of the way and go ahead on with that bullcrud. I would make it at least 15x to see how serious the two in front of me are about their hands and discourage anyone else from gettig involved. It may define your hand a little bit, but it is also going to force your opponent to define theirs as well.

Loose does not equal weak player. The hand reading skills at the table were abnormally good for a 1/2 live game.