The Strength of TPTK in the micros

Hey guys

I've been watching some videos and reading some books on poker and was wondering how strong TPTK really is, especially in recent games. The general level of poker has risen and I dont think the micros are really as soft as they once were although I do believe there are many people who just go in to play.

Im rolled for 2nl and have only really played 4000 hands so I may still suffer from variance but the articles and videos I read on the micros seem to state that TPTK is usually enough to win hands and that villains would stack off with nothing. Even going all in with MPTK or TPWK is not too bad in the micros because play is terrible and sets/made flushes and straights/trips are more bad beats than wrong play at these levels. I want to get a realistic critique of hand strength to know if playing tight weak at the micros is really profitable or not.

ClubArrow77 said:

I want to get a realistic critique of hand strength to know if playing tight weak at the micros is really profitable or not.

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You should not be aiming to be a weak-tight player. Not ever. Not even at the lowest of the micros. It's possible that at 2nl the play may be poor enough that you may show a small profit with this style, but is that really what you're aiming for? A small profit? Besides which, that style almost certainly will not work much higher than 5nl or so.

Better to learn either TAG or LAG and go from there. It's generally easier to be a good TAG than it is to be a good LAG, so I'd start trying to learn the TAG style first.

As far as AK, it is a premium hand and should be played as such. Now, if you don't improve and a passive player just floats your bets for a couple of streets and then either leads big on the river, or check-raises you big, then its time to re-evaluate the stregth of AK this particular time.

TPTK can win plenty of pots, however, remember that it still is only one pair. The average winning hand in hold'em, I believe, is 2 pair. So you really have to get a read on your opponent to decide if you asre willing to play for stacks against this particular opponent with a one-pair hand, even if it is TPTK. Depending upon the opponent, sometimes the answer is "yes" and sometimes you'd prefer to wait for a better spot to play for stacks.

The answer is, "It depends." That's the answer in poker most of the time when you ask vague questions without providing a ton of other information.

If you have trouble with strong one-pair hands like TPTK/overpairs, you should post some hand histories for analysis and give relevant information such as stats/reads on opponents, stack sizes, etc.

If 4 people limp and you have AKhh on the button and the blinds and all limpers call, the flop is KQJ all spades, everyone checks to you, you bet and get 4 callers, you have a really marginal hand that cannot withstand a ton of pressure. Your equity share in the hand is never going to be huge on that board texture vs. 4 callers, some of whom are obviously drawing but some are likely trapping/slowplaying a better hand.

On the other hand, if a tight player UTG raises and you reraise with AK UTG+1 and go HU to the flop, the board is K22 rainbow, he checks. Assuming he will always 4-bet AA, KK and sometimes AK, you have the virtual nuts. This is a spot where ranges are well-defined, he has 88-JJ maybe QQ/AK. You bet 1/2 pot and he calls, he is drawing to 2 outs. The only real problem here is you are not going to get 3 streets of value very often.

Another spot, tight player with stats like 10/8 UTG raises and you call on the button with AJs. Flop is J76r, he bets, you call turn is a 2, he bets again. Here your TPTK is likely not good. He's not semibluffing a draw and generally doesn't have worse Jacks in his range. In this case you probably should have folded preflop, and when he bets again on the turn you can confidently give up.

I cant give examples since this information came more from reading than from personal experience but it seems to be a common consensus among experts that in the micros, TPTK is good and a weak tight player often folds because he always believes his opp has TPTK.

I do realize that "aiming" for weak-tight is not optimal and do want to develop into a TAG playstyle but when I first started out playing TAG, I think I was too tight and too aggressive which made me just lose money through blinds and loss in expected value since villains would flee my raises. By playing weak tight, I may improve my game a little before attempting TAG again, or so I think.

For additional information, I play in full ring (10 players) on Party. I try to sit on loose tables so often see players who have VP$IPs of 25+, sometimes 40 or higher. I have tried to take advantage of their looseness by playing tighter than the table

You're overcomplicating it. Valuebet and go for 3 streets of value until you get raised, then re-evaluate.

ClubArrow77 said:

I do realize that "aiming" for weak-tight is not optimal and do want to develop into a TAG playstyle but when I first started out playing TAG, I think I was too tight and too aggressive which made me just lose money through blinds and loss in expected value since villains would flee my raises. By playing weak tight, I may improve my game a little before attempting TAG again, or so I think.

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This just seems like an all-around not good idea. There is a difference between TAG and NIT. It sounds like you were playing too much of a nit style, if everyone always fled from your raises. Even so, you should still be able to earn a profit as a nit, just less than you would as a TAG. I know. I used to be a FR nit with stats of 10/7 which I had to work-up to since I actually started at about 6/4.

Guess what? I was easily profitable, even as a 6/4. However, in recent months I have moved to 6-max and am now running a spewtard-like 25/21 and I am FAR more profitable. Bottom line is, if you are losing at the micros, especially the low micros, then there is something wrong with your game- regardless of which style you choose to play.

Having said that, weak-tight is really bad. You're basically playing fit-or-fold poker, and you are really only going to hit something on the flop about a third of the time, and even then it may be something junky like bottom pair. If you opponents realize, and they will, that they can simply bet you off hands easily, it will make life very hard for you.

Finally I really don't get why having opponents "flee your raises" is a bad thing. That's great. Bet more. Bet more often. The more they flee, the more you bet. Profit.

The general rule of thumb I used when playing 2nl: Keep betting your TPTK unless raised. If someone raises you, especially a passive... get the **** out of there, because there will be much better spots to make money just around the corner. And people LOVE to set mine at 2nl.
At 5nl the strength of TPTK increases hugely. Hands like AJ should just be mucked unless you open from late position. If you call an EP raise with AJ and you flop TPTK, chances are he has JJ or an overpair.

Make sure you check the stats of the people you are playing. If it's a fish, you need to be wary of his range. Which is just about ATC

One more bit of advice, if you have TPTK and a flush draw comes in on the turn or river, you should consider that your opponent has the flush. They love to call any raise after they have limped in with suited crap. There is a much higher chance they have the flush at 2nl than at other stakes, they chase flushes like there is no tomorrow. Also they make it really obvious when they get the flush because they either donk bet the turn or just shove all in when the flush comes. Fold your TPTK.

I may have been playing a NIT style. My VP$IP is 19.98, PFR is 15.53, went to showdown 24.34 out of 4,694 hands although I have been trying to widen my range with mid- or high- suited connectors and suited aces. I graph has mostly been of me building small pots of profit over a couple hours and then losing it all in one hand, ending in me quitting so I dont play while on tilt.

You haven't really said, to my knowledge anyway, if you're playing FR or 6-max. Either way 19/15 is not a nit, and falls squarely in the TAG range. This should be a profitable style for you. You just need to get better at "reading" your opponents so that you know what to do with some of your marginal hands.

TPTK can be a great hand, or it can be crushed depending upon the board, action, and opponent you are facing. If you keep winning a lot of small pots, but losing the majority of the big ones, I'd say you generally have trouble letting go of TPTK-type hands when facing a lot of aggression. This is just a guess of course without analyzing your stats in detail, but its a pretty common error.

It takes practice, trial-and-error, and studying your opponents, but you have to learn when to take a stand against aggression from your opponents and when its best to live to fight another day.

Also, the usual disclaimer. Your sample-size is way small to be drawing any solid conclusions from. It's fine to be constantly checking your stats, and you should be doing so, but be wary of drawing ANY concrete conclusions from them at this point. It's relatively common to see newer people here come on the forum and say things like "I hate Q-Q, it is my losingest hand" and they will have a sample of 1,000 hands, out of which they've had Q-Q maybe 5-6 times.

In general, keep working on the TAG style, give your stats some time to get a larger sample-size, and try working on reading your opponents a little better to get some idea of where you stand when you face them and have a TPTK-type hand.

20% VPIP is in full ring isn't even all that close to nitty. If you're truly profitable outside of the big pots you lose, the most straightforward explanation is that you aren't recognizing well enough when you should back off the gas. Many micro players like to think they're at least okay at reading situations and adapting their play appropriately, but in reality, don't do so nearly as well as they think they do (myself included btw). So they just can't let go of their pretty top pair even when it's clear to others at the table that they're crushed.

You see it "all the time". People call off with hands that, based on the situation, have little or no chance of being good. Those are important losses because it's not hugely difficult to lose less. And money not lost is the same as money won when you count your roll.

sorry, I play full ring.

19/15 in Full-Ring is not a nit, that is generally a TAG style. Part of being a good TAG, though, is learning when to be aggressive and when to wait for a better spot.

If anything I think you should probably tighten your range (while still stealing from nits when in LP). It'll put you in fewer tricky spots until you learn to hand-read better.

Also, you have to learn how to play after getting stacked. If you can't handle losing a few buyins without tilting you will have a hard time dealing with the general variance of poker. If you are making catastrophic decisions in huge pots, then leave the table when you get over 250 BBs or so. If you're practicing good BRM, you should be comfy losing a few buyins now and then.

baudib1 said:

If you're practicing good BRM, you should be comfy losing a few buyins now and then.

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BRM would be much easier if it were only about having enough buyins to be comfortable with losing a few. But it's not so simple for everyone. There can be an emotional element as well. For instance, if you're not comfortable playing above say NL20, it's kind of irrelevant whether you have enough in your roll to be playing at that level.

Of course, you do have two basic options. One not to play above your comfort level no matter what level you can afford. Don't know if it's true, but I've seen it said that Bill Gates plays $1 / $2. The other is to desensitize yourself through a series of planned, controlled exposures.

Haha "planned, controlled exposures" this is actually true. I have been winning at 5nl every day for the last 2 weeks, winning just 1 maybe 2 bi's a day. Eventually I started thinking to my self that this streek could not possibly continue so I started to play less and less hands, until two days ago I found my self not playing poker at all because I was worried about losing the money id just built up.

Long story short, I called my self a total pussy and decided to play 1k hands today what ever the outcome, knowing that lots of bad beats were heading my way I started playing. Lo and behold, I had a terrible run and was down $13 at one point which for me, is a lot. ( I am rolled for 5nl more than enough however) anyway I finished the day down $8 after playing about 3k hands and I was no longer scared of bad beats or losing my money, now that it had happened again to me I can continue to play again.

I just want to add, I'm not new to poker but the last couple of months is the first time I decided to follow correct BRM and moved right down to 2nl to grind it out.

Arjonius said:

The other is to desensitize yourself through a series of increasingly maddening, frustrating, monster donkey-tilt inducing bad beats until you just don't feel the pain any more.

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FYP.

Im practicing pretty good br I think although my br is a little low for my limit, (I have 13 BIs but the lowest is 1c/2c. I havent visited the 2c/4c at all and dont plan to until I get to $80 or a bit more so its going to be a trek before I move up...).

I was wondering what VPIP is the range for a nit vs a TAG on fr? I know I shouldnt be aiming for certain stats but i am curious about the stats of winning players.

I used to be an uber-nit on FR when I started, running 6/4. Yes, that's right, 6/4 That's about as nitty as you can get, and certainly isn't ideal. I eventually got to a ridiculously loose 10/7, but that's still on the WAAAAY low end of an ideal vpip/pfr. Some of us here are about to start a study group with Blackrain (look him up to check out his success), and he recommends a vpip/pfr for a TAG game should fall between the ranges of about 12/10 to 18/16 or thereabouts. Who am I to argue with success.

But, yeah, you're right. Don't just artificially shoot for some numbers. Understand what and why you are playing to naturally arrive at those numbers.

But, yeah, you're right. Don't just artificially shoot for some numbers. Understand what and why you are playing to naturally arrive at those numbers.

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that's the best thing I've heard anyone say about stats and no one seems to say it for beginners. It's always just you should be at xyz and that's it.

Blackrain is making a study group? I am well aware of the man's success given his success in the micros and would love to join the group. Is participation free?

Yes, he is. Current plans are for it to stretch over 5 weeks and use his book as a guide. It's going to be here on CC, so yes, it's free. You just need a copy of his book Which you can get from his website. Its in PDF form, so instant download/delivery. We are set to start this Saturday, so its coming-up pretty quick. Like I said, it'll go for 5 weeks, though. So, if you're interested, get the book and join us. Here's a link to get you started....

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/general-poker-13/book-review-crushing-microstakes-study-group-207076