Strategy for live-cash game vs big stack regs

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Beasty2k

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Hi all,

Played a live EUR 2/2 (200-buyin) cash game last week. No fish at the table when I joined, was obvious fairly quickly. A loose table with a lot of pf raising. Big stacks around overall, many with 3-4 buy-ins.

I decided to play nitty tight to start. I ended up getting sucked out on AA, KK, QQ and AK and lost 4 buy-ins within 3 hours. I know that is unlucky and that I played them right, so this is beside the point. My question is a more general one...

Let's say the scenario is as above, most of the villians are LAG and big stacked, I have ~1 buy-in. Say I am in MP with JJ. I raise 3-4x and BTN or SB/BB raise to 9-12x. I call and miss the flop which comes Q62 rainbow. I check he bets, I fold... This happened all the time. And the times I did see more streets, if for instance raised his flop-bet, he would shove. It's as though money is not an issue and they were just gambling to get my chips in.

So the problem is NOT that I got sucked out the times I played correctly, the problem is they tried to put me all in all the time.

Also, say I was MP and had 1-2 limpers in front of me... if I limped too (with let's say QJs), I would 100% sure see a raise which I would fold to. If I didn't limp, more limpers would enter and everyone would see a cheap flop. It felt like everyone around the table was a team trying to steal my chips at any cost.

What is the strategy to fight this? I normally play TAG, being very aggressive at times. After some time at the table I notice how people play more defensively vs me, which I do enjoy. I have no problems firing 3 barrels if I sense weakness.

During this particular session, only once did I get folds by 3betting from MP with QJs, followed by a comment "King King?". So my nitty start obviously made a footprint which I could use. But everyone seemed to call or raise everything despite my only showdown cards were monsters.
 
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detourglr

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Hi all,

Played a live EUR 2/2 (200-buyin) cash game last week. No fish at the table when I joined, was obvious fairly quickly. A loose table with a lot of pf raising. Big stacks around overall, many with 3-4 buy-ins.

I decided to play nitty tight to start. I ended up getting sucked out on AA, KK, QQ and AK and lost 4 buy-ins within 3 hours. I know that is unlucky and that I played them right, so this is beside the point. My question is a more general one...

Let's say the scenario is as above, most of the villians are LAG and big stacked, I have ~1 buy-in. Say I am in MP with JJ. I raise 3-4x and BTN or SB/BB raise to 9-12x. I call and miss the flop which comes Q62 rainbow. I check he bets, I fold... This happened all the time. And the times I did see more streets, if for instance raised his flop-bet, he would shove. It's as though money is not an issue and they were just gambling to get my chips in.

So the problem is NOT that I got sucked out the times I played correctly, the problem is they tried to put me all in all the time.

Also, say I was MP and had 1-2 limpers in front of me... if I limped too (with let's say QJs), I would 100% sure see a raise which I would fold to. If I didn't limp, more limpers would enter and everyone would see a cheap flop. It felt like everyone around the table was a team trying to steal my chips at any cost.

What is the strategy to fight this? I normally play TAG, being very aggressive at times. After some time at the table I notice how people play more defensively vs me, which I do enjoy. I have no problems firing 3 barrels if I sense weakness.

During this particular session, only once did I get folds by 3betting from MP with QJs, followed by a comment "King King?". So my nitty start obviously made a footprint which I could use. But everyone seemed to call or raise everything despite my only showdown cards were monsters.
One thing is I have seen.. You will get some really good players that want higher game but dont have the people for the game. They will goto one table and player like it is a 5/10 NL even though they are on a 1/2NL.
This strategy works very well for them as they bully the new people to the table.. Myself I just ask for a table change.
 
frozensprx

frozensprx

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Well, I think your first order of business would be to determine if the squeeze plays were indeed aimed at you, because sometimes we make more of it in our head and really it is just they woke up with real hands a few times when you tried to limp or make a small open. However, if they were all aimed at you, and you were sitting at a table full of regs who were playing only small pots with each other but making the pots way bigger when you were in...they were most likely trying to scare you off the big pots. Most really tight players are hesitant to play in really big pots, and perhaps the regs picked up on that and were trying to exploit you. My best advice...don't fold middle pair too frequently if it is against only one player. For example in the scenario you listed above where you raised with jj and then the flop came queen high rainbow, you checked and showed weakness and then the guy decided to barrel and get you to fold. You could have fired out a bet to see where you were, or even could have open shoved...which could potentially make a reg lay down a queen (if they think you have overpair) or at the very least it would win you the pot and show the regs you aren't afraid to risk your money when you think you have the best hand....but again that only applies if you are certain the regs are tailoring their play to exploit your nitty play. If not, then disregard the above comment.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Hi all,

Played a live EUR 2/2 (200-buyin) cash game last week. No fish at the table when I joined, was obvious fairly quickly. A loose table with a lot of pf raising. Big stacks around overall, many with 3-4 buy-ins.

I decided to play nitty tight to start. I ended up getting sucked out on AA, KK, QQ and AK and lost 4 buy-ins within 3 hours. I know that is unlucky and that I played them right, so this is beside the point. My question is a more general one...

Let's say the scenario is as above, most of the villians are LAG and big stacked, I have ~1 buy-in. Say I am in MP with JJ. I raise 3-4x and BTN or SB/BB raise to 9-12x. I call and miss the flop which comes Q62 rainbow. I check he bets, I fold... This happened all the time. And the times I did see more streets, if for instance raised his flop-bet, he would shove. It's as though money is not an issue and they were just gambling to get my chips in.

Shove pre?

So the problem is NOT that I got sucked out the times I played correctly, the problem is they tried to put me all in all the time.

Also, say I was MP and had 1-2 limpers in front of me... if I limped too (with let's say QJs), I would 100% sure see a raise which I would fold to. If I didn't limp, more limpers would enter and everyone would see a cheap flop. It felt like everyone around the table was a team trying to steal my chips at any cost.

What is the strategy to fight this? I normally play TAG, being very aggressive at times. After some time at the table I notice how people play more defensively vs me, which I do enjoy. I have no problems firing 3 barrels if I sense weakness.

During this particular session, only once did I get folds by 3betting from MP with QJs, followed by a comment "King King?". So my nitty start obviously made a footprint which I could use. But everyone seemed to call or raise everything despite my only showdown cards were monsters.
The key thing here is that it's not the size of their stack that matters. It's the size of the smaller stack, it this case you. Don't worry about their stack sizes since the most they can put in against you is what you have on the table.
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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Wait, having JJ and it coming uncoordinated Queen high is "missing" the flop and we should be check folding here all the time with a tight image playing against LAGs/?

Im not living in the same poker universe that you are....
 
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GWU73

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I like to play very close to the Super System strategy, both live and online. I just limit the gambling to pots with players who can fold.

I suggest folding JJ to re-raise unless you have a reason (such as history or a good tell) to believe your opponent is bluffing. If these players are good, they are rarely 3beting with worse than JJ in a live game. I would expect TT+, AK, AQ and occasionally AJs. If stacks go in on the flop and you have less than a set, your JJ is dead meat. Calling big raises and folding the flop too often will turn a winner into a loser. It is kinda a lose lose proposition.
 
xdeucesx

xdeucesx

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it's a 2/2 live game, there all fish
 
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Beasty2k

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One thing is I have seen.. You will get some really good players that want higher game but dont have the people for the game. They will goto one table and player like it is a 5/10 NL even though they are on a 1/2NL.
This strategy works very well for them as they bully the new people to the table.. Myself I just ask for a table change.
Thanks, yes this may well have been the case.
 
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Beasty2k

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Well, I think your first order of business would be to determine if the squeeze plays were indeed aimed at you, because sometimes we make more of it in our head and really it is just they woke up with real hands a few times when you tried to limp or make a small open. However, if they were all aimed at you, and you were sitting at a table full of regs who were playing only small pots with each other but making the pots way bigger when you were in...they were most likely trying to scare you off the big pots. Most really tight players are hesitant to play in really big pots, and perhaps the regs picked up on that and were trying to exploit you. My best advice...don't fold middle pair too frequently if it is against only one player. For example in the scenario you listed above where you raised with jj and then the flop came queen high rainbow, you checked and showed weakness and then the guy decided to barrel and get you to fold. You could have fired out a bet to see where you were, or even could have open shoved...which could potentially make a reg lay down a queen (if they think you have overpair) or at the very least it would win you the pot and show the regs you aren't afraid to risk your money when you think you have the best hand....but again that only applies if you are certain the regs are tailoring their play to exploit your nitty play. If not, then disregard the above comment.
Thanks for that. In this particular session they seemed to bully / squeeze all new players, I was the one who stayed (and spewed) the longest.

Yes i can really see where you're coming from, I prob should shove following his flop bet. But you are suggesting donk-shoving on the flop?

I can't really see how checking to the preflop raiser would be showing weakness.
 
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Beasty2k

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Shove pre?


The key thing here is that it's not the size of their stack that matters. It's the size of the smaller stack, it this case you. Don't worry about their stack sizes since the most they can put in against you is what you have on the table.
Yeah I hear you and understand that logic - but they seemed to put me all-in on many occasions and it felt like it did not matter to them.
 
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Beasty2k

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Wait, having JJ and it coming uncoordinated Queen high is "missing" the flop and we should be check folding here all the time with a tight image playing against LAGs/?

Im not living in the same poker universe that you are....
I think you are absolutely right and this is probably a leak in my game. Until he shows Q9o and takes it down... the same sort of hands happened several times during this evening.
 
xdeucesx

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Thanks for that. In this particular session they seemed to bully / squeeze all new players, I was the one who stayed (and spewed) the longest.

Yes i can really see where you're coming from, I prob should shove following his flop bet. But you are suggesting donk-shoving on the flop?

I can't really see how checking to the preflop raiser would be showing weakness.

your right, don't listen to this post ^.... donk-shoving preflop takes all the air out of his range and leaves the nut hands that call in


i.e., he's folding everything your ahead of and calling everything that beats you


edit: I meant don't listen to original post, not your own haha
 
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Beasty2k

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I like to play very close to the Super System strategy, both live and online. I just limit the gambling to pots with players who can fold.

I suggest folding JJ to re-raise unless you have a reason (such as history or a good tell) to believe your opponent is bluffing. If these players are good, they are rarely 3beting with worse than JJ in a live game. I would expect TT+, AK, AQ and occasionally AJs. If stacks go in on the flop and you have less than a set, your JJ is dead meat. Calling big raises and folding the flop too often will turn a winner into a loser. It is kinda a lose lose proposition.

Thanks, which kind of contradicts some of the comments above. So basically try and tighten up even more preflop? As far as I could see, they 3b with all sorts of trash, which I think makes me more inclined to shove JJ on that flop... problem is when they show Q9o and take it down...
 
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Beasty2k

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it's a 2/2 live game, there all fish
No sir.

I play in Scandinavia (never played outside Europe) where level is decent, and regs even at low stakes are often quite good, many play professionally or are semi-pro. Most online players that top-up by 1-2 live sessions a week.
 
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GWU73

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I wouldn't tighten up pre flop, I would add limping with medium pairs and trapping or folding the flop.
 
frozensprx

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Thanks for that. In this particular session they seemed to bully / squeeze all new players, I was the one who stayed (and spewed) the longest.

Yes i can really see where you're coming from, I prob should shove following his flop bet. But you are suggesting donk-shoving on the flop?

I can't really see how checking to the preflop raiser would be showing weakness.

Yeah I forgot you were OOP. I wouldn't donk shove, but I would at the very least raise his flop bet when he bets after you check to him, because only one overcard is on board and his range of hands to be playing in position against you is extremely wide based on your description. I also might just shove over his flop bet depending on the pot size.
 
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MIShroomer47

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shoving pre to me is not the answer here... those loose players will just call and laugh at you all the way to the bank, you know? When i play with a table of loose players i'm generally never raising preflop A)someone else is going to do your betting for you B) it minimizes risk when you dont catch the flop in any way. Even a min raise to me is effective because no one min raises pre, it's always astronomical 10xbb raises. You don't need to be playing their game... make them play yours. Also pick your spots wisely. Play one pair for a lesser amount of money... when you flop set... then you can put more money in as you stand less chance of losing the hand. I personally dont like risking my whole buy in on a tptk or overpair... no matter how good it looks cause theres that guy with Q9 that'll make 2 pair over your KK or AA and then what do you do? it just seems like your table image is doing you more harm than good because they can easily guess your range, and know what it takes to beat you, so they're playing the cards necessary to do so... just my thoughts
 
WVHillbilly

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If you can get then to play for your stack preflop with whatever random crap they have when you hold JJ, you're an idiot not to try to get it in preflop.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Hi all,

Played a live EUR 2/2 (200-buyin) cash game last week. No fish at the table when I joined, was obvious fairly quickly. A loose table with a lot of pf raising. Big stacks around overall, many with 3-4 buy-ins.

I decided to play nitty tight to start. I ended up getting sucked out on AA, KK, QQ and AK and lost 4 buy-ins within 3 hours. I know that is unlucky and that I played them right, so this is beside the point. My question is a more general one...

Let's say the scenario is as above, most of the villians are LAG and big stacked, I have ~1 buy-in. Say I am in MP with JJ. I raise 3-4x and BTN or SB/BB raise to 9-12x. I call and miss the flop which comes Q62 rainbow. I check he bets, I fold... This happened all the time. And the times I did see more streets, if for instance raised his flop-bet, he would shove. It's as though money is not an issue and they were just gambling to get my chips in.

So the problem is NOT that I got sucked out the times I played correctly, the problem is they tried to put me all in all the time.

Also, say I was MP and had 1-2 limpers in front of me... if I limped too (with let's say QJs), I would 100% sure see a raise which I would fold to. If I didn't limp, more limpers would enter and everyone would see a cheap flop. It felt like everyone around the table was a team trying to steal my chips at any cost.

What is the strategy to fight this? I normally play TAG, being very aggressive at times. After some time at the table I notice how people play more defensively vs me, which I do enjoy. I have no problems firing 3 barrels if I sense weakness.

During this particular session, only once did I get folds by 3betting from MP with QJs, followed by a comment "King King?". So my nitty start obviously made a footprint which I could use. But everyone seemed to call or raise everything despite my only showdown cards were monsters.

Well there are several things that I see that need some tweaking. Most have already been mentioned. However, there is one thing I would like to add.

3-4x the BB is not going to narrow down the field at my local poker rooms. At a $1/$2 table here, you need to raise at least 5x to get some people to fold. Sometimes more like 7x +. I know it doesn't seem right, but anyone will call a 3-4x raise on the live tables I play on. It just isn't enough to weed out the rags.


Just my $0.02.
 
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