Can Somebody Please Offer Cash Advice To Me

Ill tell you why
my logic is completely flawwed, or completely accurate and im just the unluckiest guy in the world

So this is the story, i have been playing for 2 years, and i am really into the maths side of poker, i feel like im getting the hang of it, but i dont have a steady bankroll as i can only put in a little each month

obv depositing $20 is never going to be easy, but heres the part that i get stuck with, i can play the STTs, but i only seem to be a winning MTT player, STTs i am a losing player, and cash games well they are my bankrupcy game

as i dont have a steady BR i decide to take a shot with the full bankroll

now this is where the confusion is getting, and im trying to figure out if its right in my eyes, or its wrong

ok so lets say i have $20 on the table, its an agressive and loose table so i sit tight, finally pick up pocket "Jacks +"
its raised ahead of me to say $1 i re raise $5 and the person flats me
now we have $10 in the pot and all numbers are small 3 6 8 flop
there is just over $10 in the pot, so my next move prety much has to be all in at this stage, im not raising $7.50 and folding to a shove, so in it goes and they call with a set

AND THATS THE CONFUSION

the maths of this is "he has called $5 to win $20"
but he will only hit his set 1 in 6
so that means he has spent $30 to win the $20 theoretically

now i wouldnt normally care, but remember this is for my whole bankroll and everytime i do it for my whole bankroll they always hit the set.....
this is where i feel im just unlucky
because in my eyes, they call that raise pre flop, but im committed to any flop, knowing this, surely they wont fold the PP after the flop has been seen, but they hit it everytime and so there decision is always easy


IS THE MATHS CORRECT

am i correct in assuming that if i had a proper bankroll, that this would even itself out
am i right in making them pay so much knowing that i will win $30 before i lose $20?
is it bad play by the opponent to call and see a flop as already mentioned ive committed myself to whatever flop hits?

im not one that wants to moan about bad beats, too often, but when i dont know if its opponents bad play, or my misunderstanding of the maths thats what is bothering me. so any assistance would be greatful

Cash is a different mindset , you need to exercise good pot size control habits.
In tournament play you literally have to felt the entire field to be the winner but not so in cash.
I would rather win several smaller low risk pots than 1 riskier all in pot as if you put your whole roll in the pot even as a favorite you will eventually come up on the wrong end of it.
They call it "grinding" for a reason , think of what a grinder does , it takes off many small pieces at a steady pace. Cash players use terms like BB per hour which indicate you will be there a while . It is like a never ending marathon race so pace yourself.

Stick with what your winning at. Never play with your entire bank roll at one time.

Doesn't matter what he did wrong, sitting on a cash table with your whole roll is going to end in disaster 98.72% of the time

Cafeman said:

Doesn't matter what he did wrong, sitting on a cash table with your whole roll is going to end in disaster 98.72% of the time

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Totally right!
I think you should become a winning player in tourneys first, since they will teach you patience and different survival strategies. Cash games are totally different than tourneys or sit n goes and I think they are also the hardest to master.

As mentioned above, the fundamental flaw in your game is sitting at a table with your full bankroll. This should NEVER happen. Make sure you have a MINIMUM of 20 buy-ins for the level you're playing at. Eg, if you were playing at the lowest stakes of .01/.02 you would need a minimum BR of $40.

So my advice would be to move down the lowest level cash game. In this way, you might get a chance to ride the variance train instead of just ending up in a train wreck.

hehe thanks, btw, im already a winning MTT player xD 100%+ ROI on 3 different poker rooms, but the way my life is right now, i get home from work at 5:00pm the low buy in MTTs that would be in my Bankroll dont start till 8:30 on the websites that have smaller fields. and as i said i dont know if it was just my past overshadowing my STTs since i dont really play em that much, but my stats on STTs suck, i wanted to move to cash so that i plan better what i am going to

i have a MTT coach, and he always told me that cash games was different, but as long as you arent giving people correct odds you will be a winning player

thats why when i do the maths and i see all the mistakes in my opponents actually causing me to lose, and i really dont understand the cash game mind set, which is why i built this thread.

i always start off well, grind it up, but then i get a good hand, like A A, and K K, i purposely give them so stupid odds that "a good player would never call"
but the fishes that i am aiming for will,

so for instance

K K im sat with $5, my aim is to get $1 in the pot pre, the reasoning is if they set mine they will hit 1 in 6 "that means to set mine they are losing money"
if they call with ace high, they will again hit the ace on the flop 1 in 6, so if they call with any ace they are losing, means a win win for me, but is that logic flawwed and thats where i am struggling.

i think also i have been misinformed that we should be looking for opportinitys to stack off to our opponents, so my raise sizes always end up too large possibly? without the basic concepts im always going to struggle

kingmunchers said:

K K im sat with $5, my aim is to get $1 in the pot pre, the reasoning is if they set mine they will hit 1 in 6 "that means to set mine they are losing money"
if they call with ace high, they will again hit the ace on the flop 1 in 6, so if they call with any ace they are losing, means a win win for me, but is that logic flawwed and thats where i am struggling.

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Firstly, it's 7.5:1 to hit a set. Secondly, the amount of $ you are "aiming to get in pre" really depends on the stakes, right? If blinds are 1/2c then a 50bb raise is just weird.

I mean, if the blinds are 0.10-0.25 then yes by all means do a 4xBB raise pre to $1. But, you have to remember that in this case you are short-stacked, meaning you should be getting all your money in with a monster as soon as possible (as in not having to see a flop if possible!). I am no short-stack expert, but it is logical.

Why don't you play lower limits and instead buy in full as opposed to short stacking? This way, you can make sure you get 'as payed off as possible' when you do have the best hand.

Lastly, when you are trying to get your opponent to not get odds to set-mine, you are assuming that he knows all about implied odds (i.e. that he is certain he can get part of or your full stack when he hits), which isn't completely sure at micro stakes.

It sounds like you have been coolered with premiums vs sets. It is hard to get away from on the flop with an overpair, especially short stacked, so try and brush this off and remember they can and will be calling with other things than pocket pairs. And a set is rare. Your overpair will win most of the time.

yah i know and thanks for the advice beasty, i was short stacked, and i was short stacked for a reason, it was so i could purposely not give people the correct odds to set mine, so if i do run into a set im still making money in the long run... that was the idea, obviously as you get to higher stakes the better players come in and you cant do this because they arent calling to set mine to try and win a small stack, but in the low stakes its different,

on top of that, the part that makes me a good tournament player is my play when i am short stacked as in 20-30BB

to sit with 100BB feels unnatural to me, although i have done it with great success, then the dreaded big hands come in, and yes i get bad beat on occassions, on other occasions i get outdrawn, but it always happened when i overplayed my hands, and i overplayed them because i am told in cash your supposed to "play for stacks"

thats the one thing im taking from this thread.......
forget playing for stacks, just try and get value without giving them correct odds to call, slow down when nescicary, and if its getting too scary even if you think your ahead you can lay it down wait for a better spot to get it in

i think your biggest problem is playing with your full stack. if you have $20, play the $2nl tables. i just got stacked to a bad beat 30 minutes ago at a $50nl table but i rebought and am now sitting at $150 because the table is horrible(horrible in a good way). poker is a volatile game, you might get lucky here and there but all your chips in 1 basket is a recipe for disaster

It just sounds like you're an implied odds machine (when full stacked). You're likely playing too tight and passive. When you raise people know you have a hand you're willing to play for stacks with most of the time so they can call you with less than stellar holdings knowing you'll go broke with your overpair.

lol, ok so this is where you explain that comment WVHillbilly, because now your saying the logic is flawwed

implied odds is when you hit your set your going to get stacked
so if i raise 20c and i have $5 your going to make money playing PP
but the way i play the hand there is no implied odds, because i play short stacked and the raise size pre is usually for 1/4 of my stack, not because its a completely oversized bet but because of my stack size

so you call $1.00 to win $5 then your not getting implied odds to call, because yes if you hit your set you will get my whole stack, but i know that you will miss your set enough times to make it -EV for you to set mine? so please do explain how i am a implied odds machine?
now if i had $4 on a 2c 4c table and i raised to 12c with A A, and then tried to play for the stack you now have implied odds for a call, but i dont let people in that cheaply, and i do it on purpose knowing that players are bad enough to call with less hands and ill repeat obv against better players it wouldnt work because i wouldnt get any value from my A A as everybody would fold, but the stakes im playing its got to be +EV
unless my maths is flawwed which since you have claimed i am an implied odds machine then you have some maths to back this up

You must have missed the bolded part from my post.

you're an implied odds machine (when full stacked)

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When you're playing short nobody gives you any credit and if they're like me they'll call wide just to bust your 30bb stack and hope you leave the table.

Cash game advice?

Don't play short stacked.

Another point to consider is may be some of players have figure out your style of play and / or you become easily predictable

if i was easily predictable thats fine, because like i said, im not giving odds, and im not giving implied odds, so a call is hurendous if they are considering to fold any flop, its not for people that are looking at my play, because they wont be calling the bets
So if im predictable, when i raise everybody folds, in which case im not making any money and people make money from me when im not involved in a hand, but your still bleeding money if your going to set mine the way im playing, 2 ways of playing against it is "fold" which means im not getting any value from my hand. or shove "where i get max value" if you call im still profitable in the long run

and as for your comment about nobody gives you credit and calls widely thats why its so profitable, there is a Short Stack System and plenty of pros use it,

by calling pre flop your bleeding money its that simple, it doesnt matter if im predictable or not, you raise for 1/4 of your stack your not folding anything, but the opponent has to go against the odds to beat it, which means your bleeding chips in trying to outdraw me on a flop.
thats the maths side of it, if the maths is incorrect then please explain

What limit are you playing?

My cash advise:

- Dont raise junk from early positions.(play the absolute premiums+ any pp)

-In the micros more than 75% of the time, when you raise/raise and someone goes over the top out of the sudden, give them credit and let it go if it's not 2 pair and above. (TPTK are nothing when someones re-raise shoving you)


- Try to make as many notes as possible especially when villain does something extremely awkward( sit out if you have to in order to do this,its definitely worth your time)


- Stop playing beyond your bankroll limits ( even the best players can lose 10 BI's in 1 session due to a few consecutive bad beats)

- If you have lost more than 5 buy in's take a break.( if u dont you will probably lose more and start calling the site rigged)

- Play as ABC and solid as you can if your playing anything belows 25NL. (i know its boring but you must maintain focused and play each and every hand as mentally neutral as possible)

- When you 3 bet, you better mean it, making it at least 3 times the initial raise. Weak 3 bets are a waste of money. ( esp when you have a weak holding and would preffer a fold to a call)

-and make sure your 3 betting enough. at least 6 % of the hands if you ask me. 3 betting makes it easier for you to take it down post flop most of the time. So if it's good enough to raise , I'ts good enough to 3 bet.( not literally but a lot of the times, and esp if your in position)( this is of course villain dependent)

Thank you for the feedback vinylspiros when i have a bankroll this is the sort of thing i need to figure out, my main problem clearly atm is lack of a bankroll which cant be helped currently but if my freerolls work out and i manage to build some sort of bankroll ill definately take your advice, and if anybody has any other bits to add then feel free but please dont comment on the hand above unless you can physically explain how it is mathmatically correct for them to call pre flop

you have a bankroll, its just small. just realize that if you play with your whole BR at once you'll lose it nearly every time. good luck

Here you go:

Reptar7 said:

Things fish do that you shouldn't:
They play a wide range of hands. You should only play pockets, face cards, sometimes suited connectors, and use position whenever possible.
They limp a lot. Raise.
They chase. Don't chase unless you are really, really priced in.
They call a lot. It is better to be the aggressor. You should be the one betting more than the one calling.
They play one table at a time. Put in volume if you want to win, multiple tables reduces variance.
They don't know what a HUD is. You should be making decision's based on yours.
They don't use good BR management. You should play at least 20 BI deep at least at all times.
They tilt. Don't.
They deposit. You should withdraw.

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The lack of an adequate bankroll is no excuse to buy in short. I've built up from 5 BIs before and I hardly even implement mathematics into my game, I fail to see how you can't accomplish the same.

What it looks like from here is that you are playing scared money. Never a good idea. Let us know your bankroll, current limit and your game plan for said limit.

Yeah first of all the math is a little wrong. flopping a set is a bit harder than 1in6 its actually around 1 in 8.5 or 7.5: 1 against. if its the numbers you love, play limit hold'em for a while. no limit is scarey pschological. was he wrong in the odds sure. But noone ever said you had to over bet the pot by 5 times to win a dollar... nor do you have to bet anything after the flop. you couldve made 2 probe bets on the turn and river, folded to a raise and still had a 12 dollar chance. ive got my bank roll to around a hundred dollars and i stay away from no limit. im just not ready for that. i like the numbers too so im sticking to limit.

WVHillbilly said:

if they're like me they'll call wide just to bust your 30bb stack and hope you leave the table.

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Lol. I knew I wasn't the only person willing to go slightly out of my way to stack the shorties in the hopes of driving them off.

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vinnie said:

Lol. I knew I wasn't the only person willing to go slightly out of my way to stack the shorties in the hopes of driving them off.

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Nope I figure the EV edge I'm giving up in the hand is more than made up by them possibly leaving the table and a full stacked fish sitting down.

Also to OP playing a SS strategy below say 100 or 200nl is beyond dumb.