small ball

So I've been playing "small ball" for years before it had a name. What surprises me is how many people don't recognize it or do little to stop it. Maybe this changes at higher levels, but I played a $1/$2nl B&M game last night that was typical. I'd pay my $2 to see a flop with some crap like 4/8os, and 9x out of 10 there'd be no raise. Every now & then I'd hit the flop, and wind up cracking someone's A/J, which would then make me "a donkey". "How can he play 4/8??" Not sure why I really want to share how to beat me:joyman: , but if someone is seeing *every* flop, you *have* to raise. One guy seemed to have caught on (eventually), and he started raising occasionally, so I'd lose my $2, but I'm just surprised more people don't do that. Or is small ball uncommon?

toogood2k said:

at low limits, there is many donks who want to see every flop, thats why they lose or win pretty fast, i think 1/3 of all those limits are players who want to get much more money as fast they can and dont think about lose

Click to expand...

>>>

Um...not following you. "donks who want to see every flop"? That's the whole *point* of small ball, to see as many flops as possible. If there's no raise, and there quite often isn't (which is why I posted this), I'm paying the BB no matter WHAT 2 cards I hold. *I* "want to see every flop", and I can assure you I'm no donk. In fact, I'll never understand why people in late positions *ever* fold a non-raised pot. I mean, 6 people have already called the $2, you're the SB look down at 2/7os and you *fold* rather than pay another $1? Not me.

Of course there's an obvious danger in that. Like if the flop comes A/2/7. You're now obviously going to spend more than $2. But this is where 1) being careful, 2) being a better post-flop player than the rest of the table comes in. But yes, I have gotten killed in situations like that. You limp in with 4/8, and the flop is 8/8/K. You'll have a hard time getting away from that when dude shoves with his A/8.

Ive done a good bit of reading (and practicing) on Small Ball from some of the bigger pro's and from what I got Small Ball isnt just limping into every pot with any two cards.

I thought small ball was raising to take many small pots and slowly make your stack bigger. From what I've read, you raise small a lot, you dont limp into many pots. I could be wrong, but this was just my take on small ball.

The Dark Side said:

Ive done a good bit of reading (and practicing) on Small Ball from some of the bigger pro's and from what I got Small Ball isnt just limping into every pot with any two cards.

Click to expand...

>>>

Right, right. I'm oversimplifying it here. As I implied, you typically *won't* get to limp into every pot with any 2 cards against "bigger pros". I've read DN's book, and small ball to him would mean *trying* to see flops with 6/7s etc. He's not coming into even a min-raised pot with 2/7os typically. Still, while you see a ton of donks at $1/$2 (for example), there *are* some people who can play a decent game, but they still will let me limp in 9/10ths of the time. I don;t know...maybe it's *just* 1/2, and I've figured out a way to make decent $ at it.:dontknow: *I'd* recognize/counter it if I saw it, but surprisingly I rarely do.

M33K3R said:

I thought small ball was raising to take many small pots and slowly make your stack bigger. From what I've read, you raise small a lot, you dont limp into many pots. I could be wrong, but this was just my take on small ball.

Click to expand...

>>>

Nope. In DN's version (and if I'm wrong, I'm playing this way anyway ) it would mean keeping the pots small enough where you can get in with marginal hands. He *wants* to see a flop with 7/8s. If he raises, and gets reraised, he now has to throw it away.

SoCalJD said:

>>>

Right, right. I'm oversimplifying it here. As I implied, you typically *won't* get to limp into every pot with any 2 cards against "bigger pros". I've read DN's book, and small ball to him would mean *trying* to see flops with 6/7s etc. He's not coming into even a min-raised pot with 2/7os typically. Still, while you see a ton of donks at $1/$2 (for example), there *are* some people who can play a decent game, but they still will let me limp in 9/10ths of the time. I don;t know...maybe it's *just* 1/2, and I've figured out a way to make decent $ at it.:dontknow: *I'd* recognize/counter it if I saw it, but surprisingly I rarely do.

Click to expand...

I've been playing like that for quite awhile. I usually play my small blinds no matter what cards I hold and some players mistakenly refer that as defending my blinds even though thats not really my intent. Also regarding smallball, doesn't that include the amount of your bets? Would you share on how you defend that type of play? Personally, I 3bet or 4bet it but perhaps you may have a different and/or better method. Noonetheless, it is profitable at beginning stages of tournies and i always change it up as the game progresses.

Archinutz said:

I've been playing like that for quite awhile. I usually play my small blinds no matter what cards I hold and some players mistakenly refer that as defending my blinds even though thats not really my intent. Also regarding smallball, doesn't that include the amount of your bets? Would you share on how you defend that type of play? Personally, I 3bet or 4bet it but perhaps you may have a different and/or better method. Noonetheless, it is profitable at beginning stages of tournies and i always change it up as the game progresses.

Click to expand...

>>>

I'd defend it the way dude did against me last night. Maybe 4x BB. If I have total crap, I fold. If it's marginal (9/10os), and there's a couple more callers, I'm coming in. Lots of variables, but basically you have to try to keep knocking them out of the pot pre-flop. I mean, you limp in with AA, and Mr Small Ball calls, and the flop comes 4/4/9, well.. JD's Poker Rule #1 is: Never Trap *Yourself*. Of course, just because someone is playing this way doesn't mean he won't catch cards occasionally (he will). So if he calls the bb and you make it 4X and he calls, I'd be cautious post-flop. JD's Rule #2 is: Push Until You're Pushed Back.

Another thing I see related to this is people who min-bet. Dude let's me limp in with 9/10os. Flop is 6/7/2. He min bets. 2 people in front of me call (again, typical at this level) I figure this is probably just a c-bet or a weak defensive bet, and I call with 2 overs and the inside str8 draw. Turn is a Q. He min-bets, 2 others call. No WAY do I have the best hand, but I call anyway since I'm *seriously* priced in. River is the magic 8. He min-bets, I raise, show the str8 and get called a "donkey".

The Dark Side said:

Ive done a good bit of reading (and practicing) on Small Ball from some of the bigger pro's and from what I got Small Ball isnt just limping into every pot with any two cards.

Click to expand...

This. Small ball is not about limping preflop.

Negreau's book has a long chapter describing his version of small ball, so it's really not a style you can sum up in a forum post - at least not very well. As a generalization, he wants to see cheap flops, usually in position. But it's important to remember that one of the bases for this approach is being deep-stacked since there are many times he won't be in situations to continue after the flop.

Arjonius said:

Negreau's book has a long chapter describing his version of small ball, so it's really not a style you can sum up in a forum post - at least not very well. As a generalization, he wants to see cheap flops, usually in position. But it's important to remember that one of the bases for this approach is being deep-stacked since there are many times he won't be in situations to continue after the flop.

Click to expand...

>>>

My goal is to see every possible flop I can. I realize that in a $10k tournament people will make that a whole lot harder to do than in a typical $1/$2nl game, but if a pot's not raised, I'm coming in with any 2 cards. I can't even imagine why someone *wouldn't* do this in a re-buy tourny. If that's not officially "small ball", well, it's my version of it and it works well enough that I'm sticking with it.

SoCalJD said:

My goal is to see every possible flop I can. I realize that in a $10k tournament people will make that a whole lot harder to do than in a typical $1/$2nl game, but if a pot's not raised, I'm coming in with any 2 cards. I can't even imagine why someone *wouldn't* do this in a re-buy tourny. If that's not officially "small ball", well, it's my version of it and it works well enough that I'm sticking with it.

Click to expand...

Actually "Any 2 cards" is ~NOT~small ball. That would actually be considered a "maniac" style and has a completely different approach of play than most anything you have stated so far.

Small ball is a style that really only increases a range from about 18% up to about 22% of the hands you get preflop. The general increase comes from the acceptance of the lower suited connectors that most people don't typically play. But you also drop a few of the other cards from your raise hands.

At $1/$2 NL ring you are able to steal a few hands with some of the trashier hands from the button (I prefer the cutoff more than the button myself because it has more creditability). But in small ball and most other styles, this is ONLY used under certain circumstances when you are playing the situation and not the cards.

Arjonius was correct........

Small ball is a tourney platform style that is only meant to be played when the pot odds are in your favor and the stakes are not out your reach. Deepstack and early tourney is the best time for this approach. If you are shortstack or low on your BB level, you really wouldn't want to play this style because you need better odds to place more than 10% of your stack in the pot. And small ball NEVER pays more than 10% of your stack preflop.

As more and more people are picking this style up. It's best to have a complete understanding of exactly what you are advertising or at least ask about what you don't.

SB is mainly using position to your advantage and betting small to win big. Fair enough limping in late pos with less than prmium hands is a good idea when you getting HUGE pot odds. these have to have some value. Fair Enough 2 suited cards or two connectors O/S but the hands has to have some value. 84o has no value what so ever.

It also entails using small raises(2.5bb) to steal pots but again all based on position. once again you generally want to have something that has value post flop as this is where most of your battling is going to be done.

It relies HUGELY on your abbility to play the texture of the flop and your opponent.

You also want to be playing monsters the same as if you were playing your average hands. if your first to open and youve been stealing pots with a 76o and raising 2.5bb then all of a sudden you hold AA and raise 4x the BB alarm bells are going to start ringing amongst any half decent player.

There is a hell of alot to palying SB. and thinking its playing any two cards cheaply will guide you into a lot of trouble

One of the keys is to know when to get away from a hand when the action gets too heavy.

SoCalJD said:

>>>
If that's not officially "small ball", well, it's my version of it and it works well enough that I'm sticking with it.

Click to expand...

Well its your money your playing with, so you can name your style of play anything you want. I just wanted to clarify that limping isnt really the point of it.

I also agree that trying to explain it in a thread isnt going to be easy either. But...

The object of small ball is to use your style of play as a trap. Its to convince your opponents that your playing like a maniac so to induce more moves against you, so, when you do flop the monster you take their entire stack for just the small amount you raised.

What is hardest for the average player trying to play small ball IMO, is post flop play. As katymaty just said, knowing when to get away from it is crucial.

The Dark Side said:

Well its your money your playing with, so you can name your style of play anything you want. I just wanted to clarify that limping isnt really the point of it.

I also agree that trying to explain it in a thread isnt going to be easy either. But...

The object of small ball is to use your style of play as a trap. Its to convince your opponents that your playing like a maniac so to induce more moves against you, so, when you do flop the monster you take their entire stack for just the small amount you raised.

What is hardest for the average player trying to play small ball IMO, is post flop play. As katymaty just said, knowing when to get away from it is crucial.

Click to expand...

<<<

Hmmm...we agree on everything but the official definition of small ball. I pretty much always believe I'm the best post-flop player at my table, so my obvious goal is to see every possible flop I can.

LOL Im not sure what that means but the defination I gave IS Small Ball.

Small ball is always good when playing big tournament <c> D.Negreanu. I use Small ball poker only in tournaments, in any sng i think there is no reason why need to sit and spend time waiting for extragood cards. Like about with this strategy, in my experience is easy to play, but its also not so easy to get chips, becouse if you raise only 1 of 10 hands, then probleably enemy already know what you are doing and will fold it, dunno i like use it when tournament is near moneytime