Sizing your bets to reraise effectively

One thing i've noticed since I started focusing on my game more is a specific situation that occurs when your holding a bighand preflop and want action. For example we'll use AA UTG to explain. If you are holding 2k in chips currently with blinds 50/100, and there is shorter stack at the table who is likely to push over top of a preflop raise all in you need to size your bet properly to make a reraise if they do so. I see so many times with other players and myself sometimes where you make too big of a raise preflop but small enough that you get mulitple callers and when the short stack shoves its not enough over the top to allow a reraise. Basically you've most likely sentenced your AA to death and commited yourself to the hand to bust. Whereas if you made the correct size raise to allow a reraise if they shove you allow yourself to protect your hand properly. I'm sure that could of been worded a heck of a lot better, but does anyone else agree?

How about posting some hand histories to illustrate your point.

I guess what u mean is gettig heads up with the short stack?

So say u raise to 300, the shortstack pushed his 500 in. You get another caller, then u can push allin over the top?

I follow you. I often low ball a pre-flop bet in early position if I'm pretty certain someone will do me the honor of raising it up so I can come back over the top. Worst case scenario you end up slow playing a big pair which can pay off nicely as well.

well if it is 3 limpers, you raise, then shorty shoves, i wouldnt go so far as to say that you sentenced your aa to death lol

if you have any bit of a decent stack, you can push at least 2 of the other guys out of the hand, so you will be going into the flop allin pf with aces vs two callers - sign me up!! =)

BostonRobber said:

I follow you. I often low ball a pre-flop bet in early position if I'm pretty certain someone will do me the honor of raising it up so I can come back over the top. Worst case scenario you end up slow playing a big pair which can pay off nicely as well.

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oh god no, please please dont slowplay your overpairs...

When you are out of position with AA and have shorty left to act that might shove a play I like is to just limp.

1. It is not a sign of any kind of strength so won't discourage the shorty from shoving which is what we want really, and might actuallly encourage him to if you have been aggressive and raising a lot.

2. when the shorty shoves your limp will encourage other not so short stack to at least call his shove thinking you might not be able to call his raise.

3. Then you shove over the top, you got the shorty in really bad shape and there is a lot of dead money in the pot that even if everyone folds you stand to make a lot more chips.

It is basically a kind of squeeze play the way I understand that move. It can back fire but it will also let you get away from your hand cheaply if things go wrong like a ton of limpers and a very coordinated flop.

Steveg1976 said:

When you are out of position with AA and have shorty left to act that might shove a play I like is to just limp.

1. It is not a sign of any kind of strength so won't discourage the shorty from shoving which is what we want really, and might actuallly encourage him to if you have been aggressive and raising a lot.

2. when the shorty shoves your limp will encourage other not so short stack to at least call his shove thinking you might not be able to call his raise.

3. Then you shove over the top, you got the shorty in really bad shape and there is a lot of dead money in the pot that even if everyone folds you stand to make a lot more chips.

It is basically a kind of squeeze play the way I understand that move. It can back fire but it will also let you get away from your hand cheaply if things go wrong like a ton of limpers and a very coordinated flop.

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that last thing you said is critical

what happens when shorty limps, then you have 5 limpers and a nightmare flop?

odinscott said:

that last thing you said is critical

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That is why I included it

You can just fold.

Steveg1976 said:

That is why I included it

You can just fold.

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This is exactly why you don't want to limp in any position with AA. You want to define your hand to keep things like J9s and other drawing type hands out.

What the op is saying is that if short stack has 450 chips left with 50/100 blinds, you want to raise to 200. This shows strength (defining your hand) plus gives the short stack a reason to push. But with the smaller raise, when the SS pushes with several limpers or callers after, you can push your stack in. If you raised it to 400 then the SS pushes and everyone else calls, all you can do is call the 50 raise. You can't reraise because the hand wasn't reopened with a big enough raise to do so.

Edit: To explain- If the reraiser doesn't raise more than the initial raise, the hand betting isn't reopened.

dg1267 said:

Edit: To explain- If the reraiser doesn't raise more than the initial raise, the hand betting isn't reopened.

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I understand that I was mearly offering an alternative to raising that still allows for the shove later. One doesn't always need to raise to make power moves with AA if the action at the table allow it.

Additionally raising 200 to allow the short stack to reopen the betting by shoving a little more is still subject to the same flaws as limping, I have seen shorties call half their stacks off and the betting still isn't reopened by thier actions.

Well I was specifically talking about when you open with the hand for a raise, and have 2 or 3 callers and THEN a short stack moves over the top. Such as you raise to 375, 2 players flat call before it gets to the short stack who then moves in over the top for 500 flat and now your stuck and just have to call because the reraise wasnt enough to allow you to reraise. Maybe thats more clear?

I think there are certain narrow situations where you really need to consider the shorties stack when you're sizing the initial preflop raise. In a situation like this:

Hero UTG T$2000 with AA
7 other s with betwenn T$1500 and T$2500
BB T$500 before blinds of 50/100

If you open to say 350 here you're not giving yourself the chance to reraise if the shorty pushes and you may end up playing AA OOP against several callers. If on the other hand you raise to 300 preflop you can reopen the betting if the shorty pushes. I'll also do this (smaller initial bet big 4bet AI over shorty) with a lot less than AA if I think the other callers will fold. My range for this would be something like 99+/AQ+.

Caseace48 said:

Well I was specifically talking about when you open with the hand for a raise, and have 2 or 3 callers and THEN a short stack moves over the top. Such as you raise to 375, 2 players flat call before it gets to the short stack who then moves in over the top for 500 flat and now your stuck and just have to call because the reraise wasnt enough to allow you to reraise. Maybe thats more clear?

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Sure I get it, I am saying don't raise in the first place. A smallish raise to prevent the ackward shorty shove/call isn't going to be much more effective than just limping in the first place other than possibly making the short stack fold some hands to your raise that he would shove over the top of your limp which is forcing him to play correctly which is not what you want.

What reason are you raising small with AA if you think a Short stack is going to shove? One should raise to isolate, for value, to steal the blinds (typically).

A smallish raise like the one you are advocating so that the shove reopenes the betting doesn't reallty achieve anything positive for you. It isn't really a value raise as it isn't big enough, It won't really isolate you to playing a short stack, and you don't want to just be stealing the blinds with AA.

These are just my thoughts feel free to disagree.

Edit: Also, if there is a short stack like that at my table a lot of times I just raise the size of their stacks becuase if they are that short everyone knows what I am doing anway and they won't be able to necessarily narrow my range too far, they just know I have a hand strong to call a shorty.

Steveg1976 said:

Sure I get it, I am saying don't raise in the first place. A smallish raise to prevent the ackward shorty shove/call isn't going to be much more effective than just limping in the first place other than possibly making the short stack fold some hands to your raise that he would shove over the top of your limp which is forcing him to play correctly which is not what you want.

What reason are you raising small with AA if you think a Short stack is going to shove? One should raise to isolate, for value, to steal the blinds (typically).

A smallish raise like the one you are advocating so that the shove reopenes the betting doesn't reallty achieve anything positive for you. It isn't really a value raise as it isn't big enough, It won't really isolate you to playing a short stack, and you don't want to just be stealing the blinds with AA.

These are just my thoughts feel free to disagree.

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The reason I'd disagree here is that if we just limp shorty (and several other limpers) can see the flop without putting any more $$ in (assuming shorties in the BB). If we raise, even a min raise, we're much more likely to get shorty to commit himself preflop. If shorties not in the BB I think your argument can be valid depending of course on your read of the shorty.

WVHillbilly said:

The reason I'd disagree here is that if we just limp shorty (and several other limpers) can see the flop without putting any more $$ in (assuming shorties in the BB). If we raise, even a min raise, we're much more likely to get shorty to commit himself preflop. If shorties not in the BB I think your argument can be valid depending of course on your read of the shorty.

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I didn't mean to make it sound like I do this all the time, it is just and alternative way to play. Reads are vital as always becuase I have to be pretty darn sure the shorty will shove else it all goes to hell. imo, the min raise is even more deceptive than just a weird small raise.

Also the limp really works best oop preflop, UTG or UTG+1 with the short stack one or two positions to your left giving the rest of the table a chance to call the shove or reraise and you have effectively trapped them.

WVHillbilly said:

The reason I'd disagree here is that if we just limp shorty (and several other limpers) can see the flop without putting any more $$ in (assuming shorties in the BB). If we raise, even a min raise, we're much more likely to get shorty to commit himself preflop. If shorties not in the BB I think your argument can be valid depending of course on your read of the shorty.

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I agree here. You do not want to give too many hands the chance to see the flop cheaply. With AA you are only around a 60% chance to win against 2 callers. Your ideal situation is to min raise, get shorty to push, then raise all in. Initial callers of your min raise will be trapped and, if any good, will notice this trap and fold.

Otherwise, if you get one or two callers plus shorty, you are still in the lead. If that happens, then you weren't going to get these callers to fold anyway.