[Single-Table] Learning to range players without a HUD

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GreatLeslie

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I've been using HUDs on and off for some time, however I don't want to rely too much on a HUD, as when I play live poker at a casino I may struggle. Essentially I want to be able to put players on a range without a HUD, in order to practice for a live poker environment, and take advantage of sites where HUDs are not available.

Up until now without a HUD I look at players hands at showdown and try and gauge somekind of range from that, such as if someone opens from MP in 6-max with (J6s) I pretty much can tell he's going to be loose. But apart from this it's difficult to put people on a range.
 
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yakmasterSH

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It really just takes practice. Pay close attention to how often your opponents raise and what cards they showdown with.

If you're having trouble you can start by first focusing on a few opponents at once and go from there.
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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live play is lot slower than online, so you don't need a hud live...plenty time to see whats going on...you could prob range hands while playing 1 table online, but you would need to be 'on it' from a concentration level and also taking effective notes.....again because online is fast, even on 1 table, taking notes would be a good habit to get into...otherwise its easy to forget hands that went by earlier....especially if you're playing different players all the time...colour coding is also a good one for current and future sessions.
 
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GreatLeslie

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Thanks for replying guys. Here is a few things I have been trying out today on a single table online. I have been playing on PKR as I feel that it generally represents live poker the best from an online perspective.

Here is a few things I have been doing, please tell me if this is a good start.

- Generally I tend to look for what players are going to showdown with when they're UTG (6-max), and if I see them open with hands like (QTo, K2s or A5o) etc; I will brand them as being loose.
- I also look to see if players are limping or raising preflop. If I see a player limping numerous times, coupled with a wide range UTG, I will regard them as a fish.
- If I see a player who tends to play a tight range UTG and raises 90% of his hands he plays etc and rarely limps; I'll give him/her more credit when it comes to post-flop play etc; As i'd presume at this point they're somewhat knowledgeable about positions and general play.

These are the basics I've tried to pick up on. Please let me know if i'm on the right track.

Thanks again.
 
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AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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i think that if you want to learn live poker, then you will need to experience it directly...i dont think any online preperation will have much of an affect..because they are so different..

if you're only looking at the UTG position online then you are missing all the other positions and everything else...i think you should stick with the HUD online and use all the info to your advantage and when you play live you will pick up the experience the more you play...they both requre different approaches...and if you limit yourself online, then your progress in that area will stall and you might even go backwards instead of progressing forwards...
 
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hffjd2000

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Im not using a HUD at all.

Try to assign color code to each personality. Say for TA, you can designate it as blue, etc.
 
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GreatLeslie

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Im not using a HUD at all.

Try to assign color code to each personality. Say for TA, you can designate it as blue, etc.

Do you assign ranges similar to how I have done? How do you do it without a HUD?
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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to assign ranges without a hud online.....hmmmm..

you could note down tendencies after each hand is played out that shows something worthwhile....hands you are not involved with, aswell as hands you are...

the more 'busy' the hand the more detailed notes...

a hand doesn't necessary need to go to showdown to assign ranges...betting patterns/position/stack size/blind levels/own image etc etc can be taken into consideration...

basically you have to take everything into account when assigning ranges...cant just look at one or two things...you need to look at it as a whole....how do you do that?...watch every hand and note down what happened in the ones where something useful happened that could be used later for your own benefits....
 
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GreatLeslie

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to assign ranges without a hud online.....hmmmm..

you could note down tendencies after each hand is played out that shows something worthwhile....hands you are not involved with, aswell as hands you are...

the more 'busy' the hand the more detailed notes...

a hand doesn't necessary need to go to showdown to assign ranges...betting patterns/position/stack size/blind levels/own image etc etc can be taken into consideration...

basically you have to take everything into account when assigning ranges...cant just look at one or two things...you need to look at it as a whole....how do you do that?...watch every hand and note down what happened in the ones where something useful happened that could be used later for your own benefits....

I don't quite understand how not seeing a showdown can still give you information about your opponents range? I feel like the only information you can get in situations like these are whether players raise or limp preflop etc;
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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I don't quite understand how not seeing a showdown can still give you information about your opponents range? I feel like the only information you can get in situations like these are whether players raise or limp preflop etc;

well, if a player limps a lot then their open limp/limp calling range will be big..and their open pre raise range will probably be small or narrow...and their 3bet ranges will practically be non existent....so if a 'limper' 3bets you, then you better have a monster...unless you are both deepstacked and you can them call off with decent hands if you have good stack odds..

depends on what the game is though...cash/tourney?

very easy to assign ranges, just by noticing betting patterns...you don't need to go to showdown at all...yeah it will give you an 'instant' picture, especially if you put the 'betting actions' together with it........but you'll get enough info with just frequency and betting lines..
 
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GreatLeslie

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Right ok, so if i've just joined a table and I see a player has limped or flat-called his last 3 hands he's played I can presume he's going to be a loose passive player with a wide range? And If I saw a player raise his last 3 hands he's entered with I can presume he's generally going to be more TAG style and more knowledgeable of position etc; and less fishy?

I'm generally talking about cash games
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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3 hands is a small sample, but it could give you an idea the longer the session continues..but if you can get a pattern recognition on a guy who has limped 3 hands in a row, you can then have something to work on.......a player who limps at all are usually not very strong players anyway.
but yeah, a serial limper will have a wide limp/calling range....theres different ranges man..cant really look at it as an 'overall' range...theres limp/limp call..open raise/raise calling/3bet/4bet/5bet ranges...then theres 'continuing' ranges post flop..

but from a fundemental point, bad players will limp and not raise...and when they do raise, it will be obvious that they have a big hand...and if someone only raises, then they are either loose aggro or tight aggro..doesnt mean they are good or bad players either, but it starts to build the picture..

and you can adjust your own ranges based on that sort of info...you'll be looking to exploit different ranges by adjusting your own ranges based on how you see each player/situation
 
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GreatLeslie

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I understand what you mean. The reason I said 3 hands was because it's a good start when I have just joined a table and I find it difficult to compute all the numbers, counting times they limped/raised etc;

Cheers
 
AlfieAA

AlfieAA

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I understand what you mean. The reason I said 3 hands was because it's a good start when I have just joined a table and I find it difficult to compute all the numbers, counting times they limped/raised etc;

Cheers

it would be very hard to count lol..your best bet would be to just be aware of what everyone is doing...and if its just 1 table, you will improve your table awareness the more you practice it......if you start counting everything then you will miss everything else...

you need a clear mind and to just notice the table...you will start to pick up whats happening and once you have a player sussed out, you wont really need to work on that guy as much as the other ones you haven't worked out yet....im assuming its micro stakes, most players don't adjust there games at all...

dont make a relatively easy observational exercise more complicated than what it is......just practice and pay attention...your brain will pick it up....counting numbers will just confuse the **** out of you.
 
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GreatLeslie

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Ok. I'll have a practice. Cheers
 
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hffjd2000

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First, have to know the ranks of starting hands like its different categories.
Ex. Category I: AA, KK, QQ
Second, have to know those personalities like Tight Agressive (TA), etc.

Assign ranges to each persona.

Last, observe opponents and assign personality to each.

Poker is a game of incomplete info and so designating exact ranges is somewhat difficult.
 
MrFerguson

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I wouldn't say that people who limp at all are not strong players, limping can be a strong play in certain spots for deception
 
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