OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Yes, you really do need to adjust your strategy during the rebuy period of a tournament.
The players who are going all in with garbage aren't necessarily donkeys: what they're looking to do is get in a bunch of double ups and build a big stack so they can go deep into the rest of the tournament. Even if they lose their stack and have to reload it's not really a big deal, as what they're doing is putting more chips onto the table, which they can win back later.
Example: if very few people are rebuying, there may only be a total of 15,000 or so chips on the table. So you can't realistically expect to build that big a stack.
If you go broke with garbage and rebuy a few times, however, two things will happen:
1 - Instead of 15,000, there'll be a higher quantity of chips on the table and you've got the potential to build a bigger stack.
2 - The rest of the table should start to loosen up and start playing worse hands as well, increasing the chances that you'll get action when you finally hit your big hand.
The players who are going all in with garbage aren't necessarily donkeys: what they're looking to do is get in a bunch of double ups and build a big stack so they can go deep into the rest of the tournament. Even if they lose their stack and have to reload it's not really a big deal, as what they're doing is putting more chips onto the table, which they can win back later.
Example: if very few people are rebuying, there may only be a total of 15,000 or so chips on the table. So you can't realistically expect to build that big a stack.
If you go broke with garbage and rebuy a few times, however, two things will happen:
1 - Instead of 15,000, there'll be a higher quantity of chips on the table and you've got the potential to build a bigger stack.
2 - The rest of the table should start to loosen up and start playing worse hands as well, increasing the chances that you'll get action when you finally hit your big hand.
T
trubucsfan
Rising Star
Bronze Level
I play the same way in rebuys as i play in the lower end one's. i have noticed that even in the rebuys playing my game works. i hit in hands i would play usually and don't just donate hoping to catch or hope other's don't suck out on me but i am just a newbie again so take it as this trust what got ya there.
naruto_miu
Legend
Silver Level
It really depends on 1 thing, how much u got to work with? If u only have about 100 or so then why because u'll really be hurting your BR, and also keep in mind that whatever u got to work with there are ppl working with more then what u got
jewboy07
Visionary
Silver Level
Oz pretty much hit the nail on the head but there are some other things i should add
if you are planning on playin a rebuy please be prepared (and willing) to rebuy multiple times
example dont play a $3 rebuy if you arent willing to pay abouy $10 in rebuys/add ons
take advantage of the loose play of others and call them without waiting for the nuts...after all you can rebuy and give it a go against them again
if you are planning on playin a rebuy please be prepared (and willing) to rebuy multiple times
example dont play a $3 rebuy if you arent willing to pay abouy $10 in rebuys/add ons
take advantage of the loose play of others and call them without waiting for the nuts...after all you can rebuy and give it a go against them again
V
viking999
Visionary
Silver Level
I think people overstate the need to build a big stack in rebuy tourneys. The blinds don't go up any faster than in a regular tournament, and my sense of urgency is dictated by the blinds, not the size of other players' stacks. True, they can feel freer to push me around with a big stack, but if I adjust to that kind of play then I'll win even more. If you're a lot better at playing a bullying style than a careful short stack style, then go for it. I do well with short and medium stacks, so I don't really feel like I have to ship it early in these tournaments.
What I do like rebuys for is the ability to play several tournaments in one. If I'm playing $10 tourneys exclusively, it's hard to multitable even if I'm playing on a couple of sites at the same time. If I'm playing rebuys, I can buy in again (without a fee) and be only a little bit short in chips. It's almost like a new tournament.
But other than that I treat it much like a non-rebuy tournament, except I'm expecting the players to be looser and more aggressive before the break. Winning poker is winning poker. If you're getting big edges against your opponents, you will do well. A lot of this "you need to build a monster stack early" or "you shouldn't do more than two rebuys and one add-on" kind of stuff is like listening to someone talk about their winning craps system.
What I do like rebuys for is the ability to play several tournaments in one. If I'm playing $10 tourneys exclusively, it's hard to multitable even if I'm playing on a couple of sites at the same time. If I'm playing rebuys, I can buy in again (without a fee) and be only a little bit short in chips. It's almost like a new tournament.
But other than that I treat it much like a non-rebuy tournament, except I'm expecting the players to be looser and more aggressive before the break. Winning poker is winning poker. If you're getting big edges against your opponents, you will do well. A lot of this "you need to build a monster stack early" or "you shouldn't do more than two rebuys and one add-on" kind of stuff is like listening to someone talk about their winning craps system.
juz2swt
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Yeah I am the same way.. If you wait around for premium hands you will get left behind... The majority opens up during the rebuy period playing more loose-agressive then after rebuy period is over its back to normal..
ItsMe
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yes - (they are not for me) - I think the way to play them appears to be that you are going to invest may be 3 to 4 times the buy-in to build a big stack early on and then do an add-on. After the first break the tourney becomes a standard MTT.
On PP, for instance, it appears the way to do it is to call all-ins on say a draw and if the call takes you below the base level then do a rebuy EVEN IF you win the hand. Seen it so often that it's got to be the preferred strategy for a number of peeps.
On PP, for instance, it appears the way to do it is to call all-ins on say a draw and if the call takes you below the base level then do a rebuy EVEN IF you win the hand. Seen it so often that it's got to be the preferred strategy for a number of peeps.
D
Dr_Dick
Rock Star
Silver Level
Mtlduke,
The players may not be donks, but it is a BAD strategy. Don't be a player that rebuys. Poker is not a team sport, don't be contributing to the overall quantity of chips at the table or in the tournament. EVERYONE will have to double up a few times before the break, pick your spots and if you get knocked out so be it, another rebuy tourney will be right around the corner. Let the other guys be the ones throwing money at the problem.
If you paid me $1 and I gave you a $1 in return it is a fair trade. If the next time you paid me $1 I gave you .90 and the next time you paid me $1 I gave you .70 it would not be such a great deal. That is what happens in rebuys as the blinds go up. You can argue the blinds relative to stacks don't matter because your going all-in to double up, but that argument is weak. The blinds do matter as it changes the play, putting pressure on all the stacks to call or push with lesser hands.
Take a look at an $11 rebuy on pokerstars: 1615 players, 3349 rebuys, 1025 add-ons and pays ~$60 at 250. Assume all players of equal skill level. The average player spends $40 and will make it to the money 1 time in 6. Spending an average of $240 to get in the money. To win $240 they have to make it to 18th out of 1615 players.
No, I think instead of contributing tons of money to get lucky I will build my stack by getting lucky off other peoples rebuys. Either way you have to get lucky, but my way is a ton cheaper.
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
D
Dr_Dick
Rock Star
Silver Level
Vanquish,
Better you smash your head into a wall than continue to "go crazy" in the rebuy period as you stated you love to do.
So let's see, what your saying is there is no skill in the rebuy period. What you do is throw money at the situation, rebuy, rebuy, rebuy, rebuy, rebuy, push all-in, push all-in, push all-in, push all-in. And based on the sheer math you eventually will end up with 3-4x the average stack what percentage of the time? And how often does that stack get you deep enough into the money to pay you back for all the "crazy" times you somehow don't get 3-4x the average stack or you don't get into the money?
Here is some crazy math for you...based on the tournament we know a minimum of 1025 players out of 1615 made it to the break and added on chips. We also know there were a ton of rebuys, 3349 to be exact. So did all of the players that went "crazy" during the rebuy period end up with 3-4x the average stack size, did all of those players that went "crazy" in the rebuy period make it to the money? Somehow the math just doesn't add up. Now, I'm pretty comfortable in stating the vast majority of players that rebought did not make it to the money and definitely not deep enough to make it profitable over the long run.
So please, by all means keep giving your brillaint insight into the matter and definitely help your fellow poker players out by helping build the chips at the table they can collect from you.
Better you smash your head into a wall than continue to "go crazy" in the rebuy period as you stated you love to do.
So let's see, what your saying is there is no skill in the rebuy period. What you do is throw money at the situation, rebuy, rebuy, rebuy, rebuy, rebuy, push all-in, push all-in, push all-in, push all-in. And based on the sheer math you eventually will end up with 3-4x the average stack what percentage of the time? And how often does that stack get you deep enough into the money to pay you back for all the "crazy" times you somehow don't get 3-4x the average stack or you don't get into the money?
Here is some crazy math for you...based on the tournament we know a minimum of 1025 players out of 1615 made it to the break and added on chips. We also know there were a ton of rebuys, 3349 to be exact. So did all of the players that went "crazy" during the rebuy period end up with 3-4x the average stack size, did all of those players that went "crazy" in the rebuy period make it to the money? Somehow the math just doesn't add up. Now, I'm pretty comfortable in stating the vast majority of players that rebought did not make it to the money and definitely not deep enough to make it profitable over the long run.
So please, by all means keep giving your brillaint insight into the matter and definitely help your fellow poker players out by helping build the chips at the table they can collect from you.
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
keen assumption.
oh wait no it's not. (please quote me on where i said that there's no skill in the rebuy period)
awesome, dr. dick is telling me what i do and don't do. excellent use of the word "rebuy" and the phrase "push all-in" a retarded amount of times for emphasis. you really got me now. you got me so i don't know what i'm doing.
let's ask the expert on rebuys then (that's you, dr. dick):
-why does negreanu still hold the record for most rebuys in a wsop rebuy event? (its well over 20)
-why do players like sorel, shaundeeb, and bakes (online MTT superstars if you aren't aware) employ the same tactic as i do? maybe you should coach them on rebuy strategy, so you can get them to pay you large sums for your priceless advice
-what stakes do you play? do you have any idea what midstakes+ rebuys play like? can you play them optimally? (read: optimally =/= like the $5 fos you probably play).
correct answers:
-negreanu, sorel, and other tournament pros know that rebuys are designed in such a way that your first table does not break early (you are going to be sitting with the same players for a while, since people don't generally leave after their first time busting during the rebuy period, as you have proven using numbers (read below)) .thus, these expert players shove every hand (negreanu does it in the dark at live rebuys sometimes) and let their opponents build bigger stacks (while, statistically, the experts also eventually build their own to one of 3x the average size). then, when the rebuy period ends, the table is full of bad players (obviously not everyone is "bad" per se, but generally, it is true) with deep stacks. the good players then win their chips back after the rebuy period ends by exploiting these players, and have a deeper stack going into the money, and well deeper into the tournament.
cool arbitrary numbers and statistics that don't prove anything except my own points. read above.
congratulations, you are retarded.
anyways, QED, nice try though!
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
You guys make a funny debate. Please, neither take it too personally.
Dick, you make some good points. Having done my share of re-buys, I have observed players playing Vanqs style do pretty damn well.
We would all love to win the first shove in a rebuy, and 5 or 6 more before the add-on, but since that doesn't happen, and there are many many players who can make decent observations about that first table competition, and determine that they can profit from 'maniacal rebuying', I can't fault them much. I can get pissed at them, but can't fault them.
If you are good enough to finish ITM often in rebuys without any rebuys, then count your blessings and jump up a few levels.
For me, I've played them both ways, and at this point decided that I prefer KO tourneys......
Dick, you make some good points. Having done my share of re-buys, I have observed players playing Vanqs style do pretty damn well.
We would all love to win the first shove in a rebuy, and 5 or 6 more before the add-on, but since that doesn't happen, and there are many many players who can make decent observations about that first table competition, and determine that they can profit from 'maniacal rebuying', I can't fault them much. I can get pissed at them, but can't fault them.
If you are good enough to finish ITM often in rebuys without any rebuys, then count your blessings and jump up a few levels.
For me, I've played them both ways, and at this point decided that I prefer KO tourneys......
willie beaman
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Play smart and mix it up during the early rounds. Look for the loose-aggressive players and try to pick up chips off them. I wouldn't reccommend playing too loose and blowing crucial chips. Accumulate as many chips as possible without taking unnecessary risks.
J
James_Shins
Rising Star
Bronze Level
If five players at the table are willing to lose all their chips, re-buy and then lose them all again, why would you need to re-buy or add on? You just need to be one of the players who find the lost chips. The blinds generally go up quite slowly (in the good tourneys), so there's no huge pressure to get chips quickly, and as they're flying around the table, there's going to be plenty of opportunities to double up. It IS important to build a stack because the amount on the table after the add-on period is much larger than the amount on the table at the beginning. However, you can build a stack by pushing blind or you can build a stack by being a player that takes advantage of those that are pushing blind. It's your choice. I choose the latter.
M
mickyb
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I don't think these random all-ins are good strategy if your aim is to be EV$+ from the tournament. When good players do it, they may be taking other aims into account, e.g. the respect from winning, or obtaining tournament leaderboard points. Also, in the case of Negreanu and co playing live, chips are of greater value to them because of their edge over the field, so it may well be worth them buying in six times to obtain a stack four times the size of the initial buy-in - the edge of a good player playing live is larger than that of a good player playing online.
I loosen up a bit in the early stages, just to take advantage of those who think random all-ins are the way forward. If it wasn't for that, I don't think tactics would be that different to a freeze-out.
In terms of taking rebuys and add-ons, it all comes down to value. Most of my rebuy tourneys have been on bodog, where the normal structure is that rebuys are the same value as the initial buy-in, but add-ons are twice the value (same cost, twice as many chips). Under this structure, I always take the add-on, but only take a rebuy if I've blown 40%+ of my initial stack.
I loosen up a bit in the early stages, just to take advantage of those who think random all-ins are the way forward. If it wasn't for that, I don't think tactics would be that different to a freeze-out.
In terms of taking rebuys and add-ons, it all comes down to value. Most of my rebuy tourneys have been on bodog, where the normal structure is that rebuys are the same value as the initial buy-in, but add-ons are twice the value (same cost, twice as many chips). Under this structure, I always take the add-on, but only take a rebuy if I've blown 40%+ of my initial stack.
D
Dr_Dick
Rock Star
Silver Level
Mickyb makes a good point regarding motivations, there are many reasons a player may rebuy that have nothing to do with the overall correctness of the strategy.
Online, I find it hard to find a good reason to rebuy with all the opportunity to build your stack through others and the frequency of tournaments. Online if you get knocked out you can simply wait an hour and play again. Eventually, without a rebuy you will be quadrupling up and getting deep into the tournament. With online, IMO it is patience that rules the day.
However, if I had bought an airline ticket, rented a hotel room, and entered a rebuy in the WSOP I would not lose all my chips and not rebuy. Same situation technically, but under different conditions not related to appropriate strategy for a rebuy.
For someone like a Daniel Negreanu, there is no telling why he would rebuy 20x and push dark. With his bankroll and skill he could just be screwing around. It has little to do with strategy. And even if it is part of a strategy, it is appropriate for him. It does not mean it should become standard for everyone else. I don't play loose just because Gus Hansen does.
So to end my post by picking on Vanquish, his contributions so far:
(1) I go crazy in the rebuy period
(2) I smash my head against a wall
(3) The pro's like Negreanu rebuy and push dark so everyone else should do the same
And to answer Vanquish's question I play limits supported by my bankroll.
Online, I find it hard to find a good reason to rebuy with all the opportunity to build your stack through others and the frequency of tournaments. Online if you get knocked out you can simply wait an hour and play again. Eventually, without a rebuy you will be quadrupling up and getting deep into the tournament. With online, IMO it is patience that rules the day.
However, if I had bought an airline ticket, rented a hotel room, and entered a rebuy in the WSOP I would not lose all my chips and not rebuy. Same situation technically, but under different conditions not related to appropriate strategy for a rebuy.
For someone like a Daniel Negreanu, there is no telling why he would rebuy 20x and push dark. With his bankroll and skill he could just be screwing around. It has little to do with strategy. And even if it is part of a strategy, it is appropriate for him. It does not mean it should become standard for everyone else. I don't play loose just because Gus Hansen does.
So to end my post by picking on Vanquish, his contributions so far:
(1) I go crazy in the rebuy period
(2) I smash my head against a wall
(3) The pro's like Negreanu rebuy and push dark so everyone else should do the same
And to answer Vanquish's question I play limits supported by my bankroll.
Ronaldadio
Legend
Silver Level
I play a lot of Omaha hi lo rebuys.
I think you need to do one of two things, being
I will vary how I play depending on the table. I do, however, always feel the table out at first and this early stage (first 10 hands or so) will have a big bearing on how I play.
If I hit early, double up my starting stack + rebuy (say I started with 3000, rebuy 3000 = 6000 chips in play. I then double up to 12000) I will then tighten up. The reason - u can rarley bully in a rebuy period.
My main aim is to have a bit above average chips at the end of the rebuy - anything over that is a bonus.
I am confident enough in my play to know that a lot of the chip leaders probably hit lucky and their chips will evaporate in the next hour.
Just my angle chaps.
I think you need to do one of two things, being
- Play a lot tighter
- Play a lot looser
I will vary how I play depending on the table. I do, however, always feel the table out at first and this early stage (first 10 hands or so) will have a big bearing on how I play.
If I hit early, double up my starting stack + rebuy (say I started with 3000, rebuy 3000 = 6000 chips in play. I then double up to 12000) I will then tighten up. The reason - u can rarley bully in a rebuy period.
My main aim is to have a bit above average chips at the end of the rebuy - anything over that is a bonus.
I am confident enough in my play to know that a lot of the chip leaders probably hit lucky and their chips will evaporate in the next hour.
Just my angle chaps.
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
yeah but you berate people for giving advice that you don't agree with. you don't see me saying NO YOU HAVE TO SHOVE YOU HAVE TO SHOVE PLAYIN TIGHT IS DUMB. i simply said there's a lot of merit to playing very loose/shoving a lot during the rebuy period and i, among many other players, choose to do it. you said that you should only play tight and people who play like i do during the rebuy period are wrong:
read:
so to end my post, i'll pick on you. your contributions so far:
1. omg guise playin tight is so awsum never rebuy its fckin dumb, check out these arbitrary statistics that don't prove anything: "..."
2. OMG vANQUISH GO SMASH UR HEAD U SUICIDAL SHOVIN BASTERT
3. OMG VANQUISH I CAN't TAKE UR ADVICE BECAUSE IT INVOLVES SHOVING WHICH I AM CATEGORICALLY AGAINST EVEN THOUGH YOU'VE PROVIDED A LOT OF EVIDENCE THAT IT IS INDEED A TACTIC THAT WORKS AND PEOPLE SHOULDNT DISREGARD IT ENTIRELY BUT THATS WHAT IM GOING TO DO (PROBABLY BECAUSE I HAVE A PREDISPOSITION AGAINST LOOSE PLAYERS WHO ALWAYS PUT BAD BEATS ON ME WHEN I PLAY TIGHT AND CAUSE ME TO LOSE)
sry but you lose at this thread, champ
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
That is very bad logic. If you don't want to rebuy, then play freezeouts. The odds of you managing to use one buy in and actually going deep into a rebuy is slim to none. You have to get lucky and double twice in order to get 6000 whereas you only have to get lucky and double once if you rebought at the start. Saying "The average player spends $40 and will make it to the money 1 time in 6. Spending an average of $240 to get in the money. To win $240 they have to make it to 18th out of 1615 players." is meaningless when the odds of a player spending only $11 cashing is incredibly unlikely.
Playing like a maniac has it's merits...it gives you a chance to double up quickly (4x original buy in), and even if you do lose your first 2 buy ins you have a good chance of gaining your 4 rebuys back because of your incredibly loose table image. It also does get alot of chips on the table, so it greatly increases the chance that if you get a couple of decent hands you are going to have a huge stack and does increase the odds of you gaining those chips back later on (since you change tables less in rebuys).
I don't like playing like a maniac, but i do think it is important to establish a loose table image so you can get paid off in later hands. If you have made some suspect plays eariler you will for sure get paid off with TPTK/overpair etc. But i don't think the payoff/reward ratio is worth it if you play so loose that you constantly have to rebuy 7+ times etc.
D
Dr_Dick
Rock Star
Silver Level
feitr,
I understand your point about rebuying at the start. I can see buying so as to have double the stack going into the tournament. But I disagree that you have a great chance of gaining the rebuys back because of an incredibly loose table image or that establishing the image gets you paid off in later hands. There are way too many players doing the exact same thing to have you stand out. When you get paid off with TPTK, it is because you have a good hand and someone else is playing maniac because it's a rebuy tournament. It's not respect for your loose image. I get paid off with TPTK too.
I don't know where you get the idea spending only $11 means your incredibly unlikely to build a stack, especially when other players are rebuying and shoving chips with any A any K or any connectors. I think the odds are pretty decent. Either way, maniac or not, you end up taking flips. I just think playing tighter you end up taking those flips with a better edge.
And for Vanquish...you think I berate people? I believe you are the one who posted the very insightful comment, "this post makes me go smash my head in a wall." Up to that point all I stated was that I disagreed with the strategy and gave reasons why I disagreed.
And look up the word arbitrary. You could say the tournament I chose was arbitrary, but the numbers were fact based on that specific tournament. There was nothing arbitrary about the numbers.
I understand your point about rebuying at the start. I can see buying so as to have double the stack going into the tournament. But I disagree that you have a great chance of gaining the rebuys back because of an incredibly loose table image or that establishing the image gets you paid off in later hands. There are way too many players doing the exact same thing to have you stand out. When you get paid off with TPTK, it is because you have a good hand and someone else is playing maniac because it's a rebuy tournament. It's not respect for your loose image. I get paid off with TPTK too.
I don't know where you get the idea spending only $11 means your incredibly unlikely to build a stack, especially when other players are rebuying and shoving chips with any A any K or any connectors. I think the odds are pretty decent. Either way, maniac or not, you end up taking flips. I just think playing tighter you end up taking those flips with a better edge.
And for Vanquish...you think I berate people? I believe you are the one who posted the very insightful comment, "this post makes me go smash my head in a wall." Up to that point all I stated was that I disagreed with the strategy and gave reasons why I disagreed.
And look up the word arbitrary. You could say the tournament I chose was arbitrary, but the numbers were fact based on that specific tournament. There was nothing arbitrary about the numbers.
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
this post indicates that you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to rebuy strategy. it's not a bad strategy. you're only embarassing yourself by labeling something "bad" when you obviously have no idea how much success a lot of players have employing it.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
If you read his post over again, you'll notice that this isn't what Van said.
What he said was that pros like Negreanu et al rebuy and push dark for a reason.
And it's for the same reason that I cited in my first post: they want to get a lot of chips onto their table so they can win them back off people. With few rebuys, you can only really double through once or maybe twice before the rest of your table starts to run short on chips. If everyone has loads of chips though, you've got the opportunity to win a lot more.
While I agree that you don't want to get upside-down in a rebuy tournament (ie: make so many rebuys that you have to come in the top 2-3% to make a profit), if you're not prepared to play the game then you really ought to be playing a freezeout. It's just that simple.
Which, really, is all your math above is suggesting too. Like all MTTs, you play in rebuys to make big money from the top few spots. That won't happen once in every six games - you make some minor cashes to tide you over, and take away a pile of cash those times you manage to come in at the top.
Again, if you find you're unable to manage that in rebuys, then you need to be playing freezeouts. Or cash games. Or Uno.