Should I fold QQ facing a 4 bet? 2NL Zoom 6max

Alucard

Alucard

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UTG raises to 3BB.
MP(Hero) QQ 3bets to 9BB.
others fold.
UTG 4bets to 27BB.

MP fold? Or do you see a flop.

I had a tracker but not much info on him. But seems like a good player with his star rating.
 
Masi2197

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I just passed on a table zoom bet 3 times the blind and the guy is returned all in for my surprise after having equalized had an A3 connected the A on the river and adios tournament
 
No1eJoker

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I would fold, it's too risky, he probably have AK, or KK+, good luck :)
 
debriz

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Maybe in cash game, yes you can fold.. In tournament, flat call and see the flop.
 
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braveslice

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Against unknown kinda yes, he has something like KK+, AKs, A2s.
 
vov4ik

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Yes I think that he has a stronger card than QQ and he can play with-- AK - or with TT but the flop can show a beautiful situation -Q-, and you drop the set you need to take chances and see the flop
 
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GRSONS

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Yes of course,villan could have AA or KK
 
Aces2w1n

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Depends on information.

If nit we can fold.

Call against regs and use position.

Fish and lags we raise for value
 
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sryImPro

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It's a tricky one, in zoom some players just sit and wait for AA or KK, but it's 6 seater zoom so it makes me wonder...you could limp and see what happens even tho i hate limps like that
 
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Supmargy

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Ive been following this thread for the last couple of days, because it seemed interesting.
I think we can break it down to the following:

1) call 4-bet
2) fold
3) 5-bet. But thats not really an option is it?

So lets discuss 1 and 2.
His hand range is AK(s?) and KK+, unless he's trying to make you think he has AA/KK and is purely bluffing. How likely is the latter? Not very unless he sees your stats and sees you're either really tight or really loose. Which, I suppose you're neither.

So we assume he has AK or KK+. Out of those combinations, 3/14 times he has AA, 3/14 times he has KK, and 8/14 times he has AK. So he's heavily favored 3/7 times, and you're slightly favored 4/7 times.

Those aren't very good odds. But:
If the 4bet doesnt take much out of your stack, I think you can still call here. Because if there's a Q on the flop, you'll win a lot of the time. And due to implied odds (we know he'll call a lot of your bets), it might really still be worth it.

In the end both routes are debatable. Folding is always ok, theres always the next hand. But calling might be really really worth it sometimes.

Thoughts?
 
JoseFerreras

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The only hands that beat you are KK and AA, with AK you have a flip an any other hand you have him dominated. I would call.
 
Alucard

Alucard

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The only hands that beat you are KK and AA, with AK you have a flip an any other hand you have him dominated. I would call.


This is a zoom game where it's likely the villain has some good preflop hands.
That's why I'm too hesitant to play.

I've run into more trouble with mosters and great preflop hands at zoom than ever.
While zoom can take you up in chip very quickly the same would happen the other day as well.

They have been many instances where I try to play a monster or a good hand big and pays the price. Sometimes coolers. But sometimes by very unbalanced players who play shitty hands out of position. But when have the best hand it's always hard for me to maximize my gain.

ex- yesterday I had Aces at BB. UTG raises to 6bb. I raise to 10 BB. He calls. Flop Q 10 something... Pot goes big. I'm putting him in a range of AQ, or Queens to catch a set or perhaps another pair or KJs perhaps..
But no.... he raised and called my 3 bet with Q 10 UTG!!! I mean wtf?

I have really bad experience with good preflop hands at zoom.

In a normal cash table Queens would be a 4 bet call. But in zoom, I don't know.... Needs to played more carefully.

I know the example given is contradictory as hell but yeah it goes both ways and I usually am in the under
 
Keith_MM

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This is a zoom game where it's likely the villain has some good preflop hands.
That's why I'm too hesitant to play.
I've run into more trouble with mosters and great preflop hands at zoom than ever.
there's usually a reason for that
While zoom can take you up in chip very quickly the same would happen the other day as well.
which is why you start playing on regular tables, so you get reads on players , see what they are showing down and can exploit their leaks, zoom is for action junkies not for people looking to learn how to play poker properly.
They have been many instances where I try to play a monster or a good hand big and pays the price. Sometimes coolers. But sometimes by very unbalanced players who play shitty hands out of position. But when have the best hand it's always hard for me to maximize my gain.

ex- yesterday I had Aces at BB. UTG raises to 6bb. I raise to 10 BB.
justify why you felt a min bet was the best way to play the hand . You priced him in to call with all his junk hands by giving him the implied odds to do so , he probably didn't realize that he was priced in either , to him it was just a case of its only another 4bb and i could flop big. he has opened disproportionately big with 6bb so he is claiming that he has a big hand and he is under the gun so should have a strong hand 3x his initial raise so make
it 18bb for him to continue to play the hand.
at 18bb he no longer has the correct odds to setmine, folds his junkier hands, reshoves with his KK+ and AK QQ either call or shove
He calls. Flop Q 10 something... Pot goes big. I'm putting him in a range of AQ, or Queens to catch a set or perhaps another pair or KJs perhaps..
But no.... he raised and called my 3 bet with Q 10 UTG!!! I mean wtf?
See the attitude problem you have here , you berate him for playing junkier hands and beating you , and completely ignore the fact that your terrible play min raising his open priced him in to continue and catch a good flop

I have really bad experience with good preflop hands at zoom.
if you play them like you did this hand , is it any wonder? when you bet small to encourage others to continue in the hand don't be surprised when your monster becomes a minnow and their trash become the nuts.

In a normal cash table Queens would be a 4 bet call. But in zoom, I don't know.... Needs to played more carefully.
Again this shows a flawed sense of poker thinking . You are using a default play instead of using the information at hand to adjust your play to the opponent. Against an ultra nit playing 2% of hands your QQ is crushed and you should just fold to his 3bet not 4bet BUT you aren't going to get those kind of reads on nits at zoom without playing hundreds of thousands of hands to get a big enough sample on your villains by which time you or they will have moved up
I know the example given is contradictory as hell but yeah it goes both ways and I usually am in the under
 
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John Bor

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It seems to me that in the preflop his game shows that he has a strong hand
But he could think that you have any pair older TT+
Therefore, it is worth considering own previous game and the odds of the bank
The situation has two sides but it was necessary to try see the flop
Good luck:):)
 
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Really depends on villain, if he's a solid player fold if he s creative call and if he's lag call or shove I guess
 
Alucard

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I've run into more trouble with mosters and great preflop hands at zoom than ever.
there's usually a reason for that

which is why you start playing on regular tables, so you get reads on players , see what they are showing down and can exploit their leaks, zoom is for action junkies not for people looking to learn how to play poker properly.

justify why you felt a min bet was the best way to play the hand . You priced him in to call with all his junk hands by giving him the implied odds to do so , he probably didn't realize that he was priced in either , to him it was just a case of its only another 4bb and i could flop big. he has opened disproportionately big with 6bb so he is claiming that he has a big hand and he is under the gun so should have a strong hand 3x his initial raise so make
it 18bb for him to continue to play the hand.
at 18bb he no longer has the correct odds to setmine, folds his junkier hands, reshoves with his KK+ and AK QQ either call or shove

See the attitude problem you have here , you berate him for playing junkier hands and beating you , and completely ignore the fact that your terrible play min raising his open priced him in to continue and catch a good flop


if you play them like you did this hand , is it any wonder? when you bet small to encourage others to continue in the hand don't be surprised when your monster becomes a minnow and their trash become the nuts.


Again this shows a flawed sense of poker thinking . You are using a default play instead of using the information at hand to adjust your play to the opponent. Against an ultra nit playing 2% of hands your QQ is crushed and you should just fold to his 3bet not 4bet BUT you aren't going to get those kind of reads on nits at zoom without playing hundreds of thousands of hands to get a big enough sample on your villains by which time you or they will have moved up


sorry there was a mistake. I didn't bet small. he raised to 3bb ($0.06). I raised to 10. if he raised 6, I'd raise 18-20.
And you are right. I'm stopping playing zoom. or atleast minimizing it as possible. I do much better at normal tables where I can read the opponents easily. It's slow but works
In zoom there is much more variance.
 
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Supmargy

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sorry there was a mistake. I didn't bet small. he raised to 3bb ($0.06). I raised to 10. if he raised 6, I'd raise 18-20.
And you are right. I'm stopping playing zoom. or atleast minimizing it as possible. I do much better at normal tables where I can read the opponents easily. It's slow but works
In zoom there is much more variance.

To be fair that particular hand was just bad luck on the flop. You 3-bet correctly with a good advantage, and you had a bad beat. These are the kind of players you can get money from in the long run. Dont beat yourself over such hands.

Sure, if zoom makes you tilt, you should quit. Play to your strengths!
But you shouldnt quit if you're confident in your play and if you don't lose money systematically.
 
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I dont think you should ever fold QQ in that spot it's a clear jam, its lowstakes u will be fliping plenty of time and since its 2nl they will have plenty of wierd stuff :)
 
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braveslice

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.... u will be fliping plenty of time and since its 2nl they will have plenty of wierd stuff :)

The plenty on 2nl zoom is not plenty enough against unknown.
 
AgentXtreme

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I think it's a fold , he's presenting strenght KK AA any other hand , he will only call , even AK I guess , but if I'm deep enough , I can see a flop , and hope flopping a set
 
Dailon Arroyo Blandon

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It is complicated to have a criterion on the form of game of the player UTG without having seen him play before .... but by the range of his bet he did what normally proceeds to have a strong hand AA or KK ... I think in this situation The MP player must call and see what happens to the flop. Depending on the flop cards you can either make a continuation bet or fold
 
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