Short stacking sucks

gtothec · Feb 25, 2014

I feel the need to make a post addressing short stack play that is overwealming this game.

If you are a short stack shove donkey the chances are you suck at the game of poker.
If you feel the need to short stack shove every time u have jj+ or ak go play the hyper sng's
When a rec player decides to deposit some money after reading about position and starting hands etc with an interest towards getting better at this game I strongly believe that they will find themselves disheartened when they realise that they might as well take that money and go play roulette as the only "play" they will see is a short stack call/shove with no intention of getting a grip of the subtle nuances of such an incredibly in depth game.

Next time you want to play and think its a good idea to short stack shove/double up then leave plz kindly **** off and put all your money on red

You are ruining this game

suby_rafael · Feb 25, 2014

Why wouldn't a short stack put all his chips in if he has

or better or Ace King ??

That is the correct play and i am sure you would do the same.

Remember losing is part of the game and it's not all skill this game but you have to not only learn from your mistakes but you also got to move on. Good luck.

shanest · Feb 25, 2014

What else are they supposed to do with a short stack?

Scrover · Feb 25, 2014

So, I have six big blinds and you are saying that I shouldn't shove pocket aces here? Even in a cash game, it is usually the correct play. Or do you just mean the people that just shove their stack in every hand and let luck decide whether they win the pot or not? You can make heaps load of money from them. Just need to find a hand to call their shoves with.

gtothec · Feb 26, 2014

I think you have all missed the point here by a mile.
If you have a short stack then play as such but guys that buy in with the abso minimum then open shove any decent starting hand before doubling up and leaving should quite frankly be ashamed of themselves

Scrover · Feb 26, 2014

Yes, I understand your pain, but that's poker. You're allowed to play however you want and do what you want with your chips. Think on the positives. You get their blinds a lot and when they open shove, all they get is 1.5BB if nobody calls. Give the person shoving TT+ AJ+ and that's only 5% of hands. Include 99 and 88 and A10 and A9s and that's only 8.5% of hands.

And even in your case, give them just JJ+ and AK and that's only 3% of hands. So like one in 33 times, they will shove. It's easy to realise this range, so just call with KK and AA and you've easily dominated their range. And even then, this doesn't work at higher stakes, so I would let it go and when you move up stakes, you shouldn't see them as much.

I think the way you explained it made all of us confused a bit.

tohos · Feb 26, 2014

I know most of you guys know that it is a short stack strategy(SSS for short) that is very profitable against the bigger stacks who don't adjust to their presence.

However, when there are too many people doing this, it hurts the image of online poker and may discourage recreational players from playing online. They just want to sit down and play, try and have a good time. When they lose they want a chance to get back the money. But no, the short stacker doubles up and leaves the table to find another where he can buy in for minimum again. This sort of hit and run behaviour is not good for the game and people have been complaining about it for a very long time.

I believe pokerstars addressed this by using a 'shared stack' sort of system where if you leave only one table, when you sit at another table, you will have to buyin minimum what you left the previous table with, meaning you cannot just leave and buyin for minimum at another table. I remember reading about it somewhere, not sure if its already implemented.

Bottom line is yes, it is a valid strategy, but it is frowned upon, why don't you go and try it in a live setting. Not only does it paint the game(or poker room) in a negative light, it also potentially cuts of recreational players who feel cheated by this hit and run behaviour. You can argue all you want that its a 'valid strategy' and it can be beaten, and I'm not saying you can't. But I understand where OP is coming from and I believe minimum buyins used to be lower on some poker rooms if I am not wrong so they are definitely trying to address this issue but they don't want to go too overboard with limitations either as it could end up backfiring. Fewer recreational players means less money coming into the poker industry and they definitely don't want that.

It doesn't seem that bad at micros though as generally the people there are either trying to learn(usually 100BB+ play) or just donking off randomly.

fletchdad · Feb 26, 2014

Short stackers generally suck at every level. Hit and run SS'ers are the bottom feeders of the poker world.

Playing a Short-stack strategy is also an oxymoron IMO.

In short, if you play short then you are an idiot, a low life scum POS.

I do not include learners who play SS cause they are scared. But everyone else.

fletchdad · Feb 26, 2014

suby_rafael said:
Why wouldn't a short stack put all his chips in if he has or better or Ace King ??

That is the correct play and i am sure you would do the same.

Remember losing is part of the game and it's not all skill this game but you have to not only learn from your mistakes but you also got to move on. Good luck.

Wat???

shanest said:
What else are they supposed to do with a short stack?

Top up.

Scrover said:
So, I have six big blinds and you are saying that I shouldn't shove pocket aces here? Even in a cash game, it is usually the correct play. Or do you just mean the people that just shove their stack in every hand and let luck decide whether they win the pot or not? You can make heaps load of money from them. Just need to find a hand to call their shoves with.

I think he is referring to cash games exclusively. SS simply suck in cash games. In every respect.

Scrover said:
Yes, I understand your pain, but that's poker.

No, poker is something entirely different.

Anyone want to guess what I think of players who play short?

Arjonius · Feb 26, 2014

So everyone should play the way you want them to so you never have to leave your comfort zone? And anyone who doesn't should be ashamed of themselves?

What kind of attitude is that?

Never mind that a large majority of shortstackers aren't particularly good, and thus represent solid opportunities to make money.

radman · Feb 26, 2014

Arjonius said:
So everyone should play the way you want them to so you never have to leave your comfort zone? And anyone who doesn't should be ashamed of themselves?

What kind of attitude is that?

Never mind that a large majority of shortstackers aren't particularly good, and thus represent solid opportunities to make money.

so heres a thought since sites will not allow you to leave with example- 100bb to sit at another table SS. You have to bring in your prev stack. So anyone who uses this tactic will have to min buy into several tables at once. Why not do a quick scan of the tables and see if you can spot the same SS at multi tables. Should prove to be a money maker.

fletchdad · Feb 26, 2014

Arjonius said:
So everyone should play the way you want them to so you never have to leave your comfort zone? And anyone who doesn't should be ashamed of themselves?

What kind of attitude is that?

Never mind that a large majority of shortstackers aren't particularly good, and thus represent solid opportunities to make money.

On the one hand I get what you are saying. But short stackers suck. Having them take space at the tables sucks.

I dont even remotely want everyone to play the way I want them to. I just dont want stupid non profitable players taking space at the tables. They may suck, but stack size hinders money making opportunities. And the shove top 10% (or, 5 or 15 or w/e) or fold also is not a profitable opponent.

Every one has the right to play as they want. I am just using my right to say what I think of them..............

Mr Sandbag · Feb 26, 2014

Though I think you went a bit overboard here, I agree short stackers are pretty annoying. I play 1/2 no limit live, and it is amazing how many people sit down with the minimum $50 buy in. What's even more stunning is how often these guys try to play the game as if they have a full stack (cold calling $25 3bets pre and folding post, slow playing hands, etc.).

Playing short stacked may not be completely horrible in some situations, but at 1/2 live where the typical open raise size is $12+, I don't see how anyone could play with $50.

Creepy Jackalope · Feb 26, 2014

I think we've all known people in our lives that for whatever reason don't want to work. They don't seem to put much effort into anything. This to me is what short stackers are all about.

They don't really want to know this game, and couldn't be bothered to learn it.

Which really is fine. They are playing within the rules. Just like a guy who takes a job but puts no effort into it. He isn't doing anything illegal. But he's not having much of a positive affect on anything or anyone. Not even himself.

This is what the cash game short stacker is to me.

They don't want to think, study, review, or do any work. No effort. They don't want to make post-flop decisions beyond shove or fold. Easy enough for the rest of us to to adjust to. Well maybe not easy.. but the rest of us are used to putting in a little work.

The real kicker here is that their own logic is flawed. If they want to play like a donkey that's fine.. but the short stack doesn't change anything. Why not buy in full? Your QQ is gonna hold up.. or it's not.

Stack size doesn't mean anything. If it's the variance you don't like.. or you don't have a lot of money... then drop down in stakes like everyone else...

It's not poker specific. It's life. Some people are the type of people that are always looking for the short-cut. The con. Anything but real work and effort. I think all of us think that way from time to time and wonder about it. Many of us have even briefly tried short-stacking...

But most of us come to the realization that there is no substitute for time and effort, and putting in the work toward becoming a better version of yourself. Or in this instance, becoming better poker players.

In the end, I accept that short-stackers are going to exist. They aren't going to drop stakes and try to learn the game. They will be lazy and force the rest of us to put the work in and learn how to adjust to them. I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I plan to punish them for that every opportunity I get.

Short stackers exist. They probably always will. But that's all they will ever be to me. Short stackers. Not poker players. Short-stackers.

ariolis30 · Feb 26, 2014

Mr Sandbag said:
Though I think you went a bit overboard here, I agree short stackers are pretty annoying. I play 1/2 no limit live, and it is amazing how many people sit down with the minimum $50 buy in. What's even more stunning is how often these guys try to play the game as if they have a full stack (cold calling $25 3bets pre and folding post, slow playing hands, etc.).

Playing short stacked may not be completely horrible in some situations, but at 1/2 live where the typical open raise size is $12+, I don't see how anyone could play with $50.

I dont mind it live at all, when a guy sits w a dilly stack i know its not going to last very long, online its a different story and thats why theres so much debate about it

fletchdad · Feb 26, 2014

Mr Sandbag said:
Though I think you went a bit overboard here, .

Reading my previous posts, I agree you have a point. I did get a bit too emotional.

I just get annoyed. Obviously if it allowed, people can do as they please. And you make good points in the rest of your post as well.

SS do usually suck at poker, but I dont like them at my table even if they suck.

Mr Sandbag · Feb 26, 2014

fletchdad said:
Reading my previous posts, I agree you have a point. I did get a bit too emotional.

I just get annoyed. Obviously if it allowed, people can do as they please. And you make good points in the rest of your post as well.

SS do usually suck at poker, but I dont like them at my table even if they suck.

I get pretty annoyed too. Especially when I'm on a waiting list, the room opens a new table, and I realize I'm one of two players at the new table that isn't short stacked.

I also get confused when someone loses a hand and only has like $25 in front of him. They'll sit forever, and when he finally loses it he rebuys. What is the point? Why not just top up to a respectable amount so you're not just straight up gambling?

I was going to discuss how playing short stacked actually commits you to a pot where you could otherwise make a good fold and save money, but there is no point. Short stackers aren't good enough players to make good folds even if they had larger stacks.

IPlay · Feb 26, 2014

Lol @ the first 3 replies.

Talk about going over your head

pfb8888 · Feb 26, 2014

waaahh.... I hate hellmuth crybabies.

but I don't tell them what to do with THEIR money.

gtothec · Feb 26, 2014

pfb8888 said:
waaahh.... I hate hellmuth crybabies.

but I don't tell them what to do with THEIR money.

poker as an economy relies on recreational players who believe that this is a reputable and logical game in order for it to exist.

if you remove any post flop play from this game which is essentially the tactics of short stackers then these recreational players might as well take their money and go play roulette. where they can double up with 50/50 chance.

therefore the whole economy of poker will just destroy itself and all the winning players will just be passing money around with all the other winning players and paying a huge rake for the pleasure.

we NEED recreational players to enjoy this game

Arjonius · Feb 27, 2014

fletchdad said:
I dont even remotely want everyone to play the way I want them to.

You, no. But that's how OP came across.

[/quote]I just dont want stupid non profitable players taking space at the tables. They may suck, but stack size hinders money making opportunities. [/quote]
This assumes they'd be replaced by equally stupid players with larger stacks. But if we assume decent regs instead, I'll take the lousy short stackers.

Every one has the right to play as they want. I am just using my right to say what I think of them..............

I don't like them either. But they've been profitable for me so I don't really mind seeing them at my tables, a couple anyway

Ubercroz · Mar 7, 2014

Creepy Jackalope said:
Stack size doesn't mean anything. If it's the variance you don't like.. or you don't have a lot of money... then drop down in stakes like everyone else...

Actually stack size makes a huge difference. If you have a short stack you can more easily commit your stack, and are more likely to get called.

It takes less effort to get your stack to match the size of the pot. As a result you are making the correct poker decision to shove.

What short stacking does is limit the number of options that you have, because you don't have the implied odds to do something other than a tight game. Additionally if you are short stacked you are setting yourself up to make the correct decision in poker more regularly.

I don't want to say that I like people short stacking. I think the game is more enjoyable when people have deeper stacks. That being said, you should take time to learn why what they are doing is technically correct. If you can take that information and extrapolate that to deeper stacks you will be a better player.

Your odds and implied odds, and what you should be committed with and why are important. It happens to turn out that short stack players can play tight and always make the right decision.

Creepy Jackalope · Mar 7, 2014

Ubercroz said:
Actually stack size makes a huge difference. If you have a short stack you can more easily commit your stack, and are more likely to get called.

My point with saying it didn't make a difference.. was that I don't see how it reduces variance or limits loses.

It just lowers effective stack size, which like you say, alters game play, but I fail to see the advantage. So why not just buy in full?

I mean you make good points, but I don't see the advantage for the short stacker....

Ubercroz · Mar 8, 2014

Creepy Jackalope said:
My point with saying it didn't make a difference.. was that I don't see how it reduces variance or limits loses.

It just lowers effective stack size, which like you say, alters game play, but I fail to see the advantage. So why not just buy in full?

I mean you make good points, but I don't see the advantage for the short stacker....

Good questions.

Some of this comes down to effective stack sizes, implied odds, and stack to pot ratios.

If you have a premium hand, lets say an AK then you should be ahead of most people at the table. The problem that AK will face on the flop, turn, and river is that they may be giving someone else odds to call when that other person is a dog.

Let say you knew (implied odds) that you are only 25% likely to make your hand and you have to call a 1:3 bet. You need to be 33% likely to improve on your hand to break even. However you know that if you make your hand you can shove for your entire stack and he will call.

Whether that scenario is profitable for the player depends on the size of the stacks in play. If there is barely anything left in the stack of your opponent than it is a bad play. No implied odds. You cannot make enough money on your sub-optimal call to make up for the times you lose.

If that person has a very deep stack then it is insanely profitable to make that same play. It would also be crazy for that person to expect you to call off your entire stack to a shove.

Those are basically the principles that allow a short stack player to play with less variance. They are putting their chips in when their hand is a favorite and they do not have to worry about being in a bad situation later. They can't be bluffed because they have few enough chips that they can really never fold. They are playing a pure equity game. They can never be in a situation where they have to make a hard call because the pot is $.75 and they have .$25 left with top pair top kicker. They just shove and realize they are going to be called by worse hands all too often.

If they buy in full they give other people the opportunity to put them in a hard spot. They also have the opportunity to pay people off when that other guy hits his hand. The bigger your stack size, the harder the game gets.

That may have been a little rambling, and I didn't even really get to SPR - but it makes a difference. Look it up if you don't know what it is and maybe that will help make some sense of what I am saying, since I probably didn't do a very good job on my own.

Creepy Jackalope · Mar 8, 2014

Ubercroz said:
Good questions.

Some of this comes down to effective stack sizes, implied odds, and stack to pot ratios.

If you have a premium hand, lets say an AK then you should be ahead of most people at the table. The problem that AK will face on the flop, turn, and river is that they may be giving someone else odds to call when that other person is a dog.

Let say you knew (implied odds) that you are only 25% likely to make your hand and you have to call a 1:3 bet. You need to be 33% likely to improve on your hand to break even. However you know that if you make your hand you can shove for your entire stack and he will call.

Whether that scenario is profitable for the player depends on the size of the stacks in play. If there is barely anything left in the stack of your opponent than it is a bad play. No implied odds. You cannot make enough money on your sub-optimal call to make up for the times you lose.

If that person has a very deep stack then it is insanely profitable to make that same play. It would also be crazy for that person to expect you to call off your entire stack to a shove.

Those are basically the principles that allow a short stack player to play with less variance. They are putting their chips in when their hand is a favorite and they do not have to worry about being in a bad situation later. They can't be bluffed because they have few enough chips that they can really never fold. They are playing a pure equity game. They can never be in a situation where they have to make a hard call because the pot is $.75 and they have .$25 left with top pair top kicker. They just shove and realize they are going to be called by worse hands all too often.

If they buy in full they give other people the opportunity to put them in a hard spot. They also have the opportunity to pay people off when that other guy hits his hand. The bigger your stack size, the harder the game gets.

That may have been a little rambling, and I didn't even really get to SPR - but it makes a difference. Look it up if you don't know what it is and maybe that will help make some sense of what I am saying, since I probably didn't do a very good job on my own.

Again though, this is all pretty much just pointing out some possible reasons for playing short stacked. Not reducing the variance.

Sure it has some pros, but it has it's negatives too. You can't get as much fold equity, you can't maximize returns when you make your hand etc. I'm not gonna type a whole bunch here.. but for every pro there is a con. At least the way i see it.

Not to mention, if you double up then you're full stacked anyway and have to alter your game. Unless your always leaving the table whenever you make a few pennies. But that makes no more sense for a short stacker than it does to someone who buys in full.

I can agree though.. some players may find the pros outweigh the cons. But it's still not less variance. It could perhaps feel less significant because it's smaller sums at any given point, but again buying in full at smaller limits would have the same effect.

Short stacking sucks

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