SH'd hand live 1/2

A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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We are 6 handed on the btn with KJss. Effective stack is 153.

1 limper and it goes to CO who is a decent TAG thinking player who respects my game a lot.

He pops to 10, I think about 3betting, but flat in position on everyone with a good hand.

One blind calls and then the limper grudgingly calls- we are 4 to the flop with 40 in there.

Qd 10s 3d

Check, Check, Villain (raiser) bets 20.

Hero raises to 45....

Fold, Fold.....Villain shoves for 98 more.

What range of hands do we put villain on?

Do we like the flop raise?

How would you of played it?

If he flats was planning on shoving A LOT of spade turns, and taking a lot of free cards too.
 
IPlay

IPlay

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He only bet around half pot so flatting would not be bad, I prefer the raise though just like you did. Except I raise more like 55-60. Obvious call off and I am assuming you did. Does villain always open to this size? This seems like a weak open for 1/2 and I probably put him on a speculative hand like a pocket pair or maybe even Q10s. I doubt he ever does this with AQ, and since you said he respects your game alot I kind of doubt he does this(or opens that small) with AA or KK. I basically put him on 1010, 33, or Q10s that he decided to play for some reason, maybe against a weaker player.

He could just see your raise as weak and assume you are raising a draw since there is so many out there so he is protecting a one pair hand but I a kind of doubt that.
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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He only bet around half pot so flatting would not be bad, I prefer the raise though just like you did. Except I raise more like 55-60. Obvious call off and I am assuming you did. Does villain always open to this size? This seems like a weak open for 1/2 and I probably put him on a speculative hand like a pocket pair or maybe even Q10s. I doubt he ever does this with AQ, and since you said he respects your game alot I kind of doubt he does this(or opens that small) with AA or KK. I basically put him on 1010, 33, or Q10s that he decided to play for some reason, maybe against a weaker player.

He could just see your raise as weak and assume you are raising a draw since there is so many out there so he is protecting a one pair hand but I a kind of doubt that.

Standard opening for our table with one limper. Maybe 12 is a bit more normal, but 10 isn't seen as a small raise in our game TBH.

You might want to rethink that range; that is a ridiculously strong range and he would't always reshove sets here, no?

Why make the one bet im getting away from sometimes?
 
Mase31683

Mase31683

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I'm not a big fan of this flop play. I think you'd be better off peeling, then you can push hard if you make the straight, and rep a made flush on a diamond.

Frankly in $200nl live you don't have to make plays like this. You can crush the game by waiting to make a hand then betting it.

As a TAG thinking player, villain is looking at this flop and your range. What are you raising with? Probably sets and strong draws, and with straight draws and diamond draws out there, fairly often you'll be holding a draw. I expect him to be putting you on a diamond draw, and he's protecting his strong one pair holding.

If you're looking to wrestle a pot from a TAG who raised preflop, I'd rather do it on some low to middle card board thats suited like 547 or 873
 
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hffjd2000

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I think your toast here.

He continue bet with 3 opponents couple it with a 4bet on the flop.

I dont like your flop raise because its a medium stake.
 
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rw11687

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I dont understand the flop re-raise unless you really thought he would fold. Your hand is not strong here, an open ended straight draw is a pretty big dog to any Q here and if he respects your game, he is shoving with at least a big Q, maybe even 2 pair or a set. I would flat the flop and try to hit before getting aggressive. Personally, I hate to get my stack in on a draw unless it is a double draw.
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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I'm not a big fan of this flop play. I think you'd be better off peeling, then you can push hard if you make the straight, and rep a made flush on a diamond.

Frankly in $200nl live you don't have to make plays like this. You can crush the game by waiting to make a hand then betting it.

As a TAG thinking player, villain is looking at this flop and your range. What are you raising with? Probably sets and strong draws, and with straight draws and diamond draws out there, fairly often you'll be holding a draw. I expect him to be putting you on a diamond draw, and he's protecting his strong one pair holding.

If you're looking to wrestle a pot from a TAG who raised preflop, I'd rather do it on some low to middle card board thats suited like 547 or 873

1) If I am repping sets/2 pairs and strong draws, isn't it a good bet to make since his likely holdings don't play well against those combos?

2) I am not necessarily looking to take the pot here....I am looking for either a free card or a great spot to take the pot away on the turn with a scare card.

3) (And this applies to the below comment as well) I don't really care to hear if the play isn't necessary to win at 1/2 GENERALLY; I think that is a bigger discussion...more interested in if it is the optimal play here.

I think your toast here.

He continue bet with 3 opponents couple it with a 4bet on the flop.

I dont like your flop raise because its a medium stake.

Toast= which range exactly?

Again, not sure how "because it is medium stake" (which it isn't technically...it is low stakes against a thinking opponent) is an explanation at all....but I kind of get what you guys are saying.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peeling is ok here, but then in a multi-way pot were basically not going to have those imaginary diamond outs and/or 2 of our real outs we can hammer with bets really....no?
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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I dont understand the flop re-raise unless you really thought he would fold. Your hand is not strong here, an open ended straight draw is a pretty big dog to any Q here and if he respects your game, he is shoving with at least a big Q, maybe even 2 pair or a set. I would flat the flop and try to hit before getting aggressive. Personally, I hate to get my stack in on a draw unless it is a double draw.

You think if he respects my game he is just snap getting it in with a hand like KQ here?

Really?

I would think it be the opposite tbh. The only huge made hand I have him on is QQQ or 101010...would he snap shove those really?

Maybe....

I don't see Q10 in his range often here or really 33 that often.
 
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rw11687

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You think if he respects my game he is just snap getting it in with a hand like KQ here?

Really?

I would think it be the opposite tbh. The only huge made hand I have him on is QQQ or 101010...would he snap shove those really?

Maybe....

I don't see Q10 in his range often here or really 33 that often.

What makes you think that if he respects your game he is going to re raise you all in with a weak hand?
 
Mase31683

Mase31683

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Been thinking about this hand a lot. And I think the biggest problem is simply the SPR. The stacks are starting at 76bb, raises to 5bb and 4 calls.
Flop = 20bb Effective remaining stacks 71bb

So our SPR is only 3.5 which is awful for trying to run a semi bluff. And that's the spot we get stuck in. We have to raise a tiny amount to leave enough behind to make a turn shove meaningful, so that flop raise doesn't get respect. If we raise more on the flop well we're certainly committed and a top pair holding should easily and happily get it in.

We simply don't have deep enough stacks in relation to the pot to really make a play
 
IPlay

IPlay

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Good post Mase, I need to study up on SPR some.

I just hate playing draws slow and like adding in the fold equity in most situations. I would make an argument for balance in this spot too for when you have sets and top two but that is probably not necessary in a 1/2 live game.
 
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tomnovember

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We are 6 handed on the btn with KJss. Effective stack is 153.

1 limper and it goes to CO who is a decent TAG thinking player who respects my game a lot.

He pops to 10, I think about 3betting, but flat in position on everyone with a good hand.

One blind calls and then the limper grudgingly calls- we are 4 to the flop with 40 in there.

Qd 10s 3d

Check, Check, Villain (raiser) bets 20.

Hero raises to 45....

Fold, Fold.....Villain shoves for 98 more.

What range of hands do we put villain on?

Do we like the flop raise?

How would you of played it?

If he flats was planning on shoving A LOT of spade turns, and taking a lot of free cards too.

I don't like your raise on the flop... Floating here may be better as you have good implied odds
 
A2345Razz

A2345Razz

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Been thinking about this hand a lot. And I think the biggest problem is simply the SPR. The stacks are starting at 76bb, raises to 5bb and 4 calls.
Flop = 20bb Effective remaining stacks 71bb

So our SPR is only 3.5 which is awful for trying to run a semi bluff. And that's the spot we get stuck in. We have to raise a tiny amount to leave enough behind to make a turn shove meaningful, so that flop raise doesn't get respect. If we raise more on the flop well we're certainly committed and a top pair holding should easily and happily get it in.

We simply don't have deep e nough stacks in relation to the pot to really make a play

Ya, this is really the answer I think....the same one I came to upon thinking about the hand for awhile. I don't have the room or leverage to really make a move like this on the flop....GREAT POST.

Good post Mase, I need to study up on SPR some.

I just hate playing draws slow and like adding in the fold equity in most situations. I would make an argument for balance in this spot too for when you have sets and top two but that is probably not necessary in a 1/2 live game.

I am the same way......i need to get 6:1 on average to call this flop bet with no other considerations. It sounds weird, but it may be a fold then if I respect the players int he pot with me not to go off.

I don't like your raise on the flop... Floating here may be better as you have good implied odds

I don't think you and I have the same definition of floating.

I have a decent amount of equity here unless he has some Diamond draw with a pair9(highly unlikely) or a KQ/AJ

I have a K,9,A and backdoor spades.
 
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