set mining 3bet pot

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Ubercroz

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As I understand it set-mining in a 3bet pot is (generally) a bad idea, and when OOP it an even badder idea (more bad/retched if you dont like badder).

Is this still true when your deep, say effective 180bb against a standard TAG? If so at what stack depth is it okay- lets say normal 3bb raise followed by a 15bb reraise- we will consider play HU on the flop.

Is the reason simply implied odds are no good (especially 100bb deep) or is there some other consideration outside of this- like an increased potential for set over set or something like that?

Does this remain true in a multiway pot? If you are the sb with 33 and there has been bet, 3bet, call are you getting the right expressed odds to call, or do you fold because there is still another hand to act that may iso-raise?

Just some thought/questions I was looking for some input on.
 
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baudib1

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you need to look to be getting like 20-1 ratio of effective stack sizes to call preflop to be profitable. You can adjust this slightly based on reads: If villain is spazzy and will never fold an overpair, or his raising range is very tight, you need slightly lower odds. If you are OOP with 33 and villain's 3-betting a wide range from the button, it's pretty much a fold regardless of odds as your hand is unplayable postflop and he's not paying you off with J-high or something.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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100bb's isn't deep, it's medium.

You're going to miss most of the time that you setmine - and if you're purely setmining (say 22 or 33), you usually have to fold on the flop.

When you do hit your set, you're sometimes going to lose to a better hand (overset+) and you're frequently not going to get paid off (cuz Villain has AQ unimproved and folds when you bet).

That's why the huge implied odds need to be there - you're going to miss/lose/not get paid off so frequently when setmining that you need to believe you're going to get paid off when you do hit. 20:1 is high imo, but expecting 12:1 or 15:1 aren't unreasonable requirements imo.

3bet pots reduce the possibility of those requirements - if you're playing 100bb's effective stacks and the pot is already 18bb's pf, you can't get the right implied odds.
 
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baudib1

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you're 8-1 against hitting your set, so you need bigger odds to make money on it in the long run. there are just so many scenarios where you don't get it in, i.e. villain has KK and an A comes on the flop or turn or you lose to a bigger hand.

basically, in 3-bet pots unless you're very deep, you are never getting anything near the right odds to call preflop.
 
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Ubercroz

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I wasnt saying 100bb is deep I was saying that your implied odds arent super great when you are 100bb deep- as opposed to 50bb deep or 200bb deep- deep being used as an adjective rather than a noun.

I understand why at 100bb you should not- what I am asking is: is it simply a question of math and implied odds- whatever you number is if its 12, 15, or 20x the bet for implied odds, or is there some other reason that you would not want to set mine a 3bet pot?

and if you are getting the right odds do you always call? so 200bb deep and you its a 15bb 3bet with (now) 19bb in the middle and he has 185bb behind you have to call 15bb for the implied odds of 204bb or a little better than 12x the bet in implied odds. if 12x is you magic number is this a mandatory call?
 
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baudib1

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Figure out some ranges for what people are 3-betting with, as well as figure out how often they are 4-bet shoving the flop and your equity when you get it in. This is without taking into other factors, like the times when you raise in EP, get smooth-called and then 3-bet, and the caller 4-bets.
 
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slycbnew

slycbnew

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I wasnt saying 100bb is deep I was saying that your implied odds arent super great when you are 100bb deep- as opposed to 50bb deep or 200bb deep- deep being used as an adjective rather than a noun.

Gotcha, my bad :D

and if you are getting the right odds do you always call? so 200bb deep and you its a 15bb 3bet with (now) 19bb in the middle and he has 185bb behind you have to call 15bb for the implied odds of 204bb or a little better than 12x the bet in implied odds. if 12x is you magic number is this a mandatory call?

baudib's rec is very good - expanding, in order to get paid, you need:

1. odds (potential of at least 12:1 payoff)

2. Villain has to have something he'll get stacks in w, if his range is weak (LAG stats) this is less likely (he may be opening J3s for example)

3. Villain has to be the type of player to get stacks in w worse than a set (see those guys complaining in chat about some donk that called w J8s to break their AA's? Hello, implied odds)
 
KardKlub

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answer to your question is yes. You can call more with your small pairs, but ip is always best. You can also call with s/c.

When playing deep you want to play hands that make big hands, where as tptk doesn't really have you smiling when you have to call a shove on the turn.

4 betting these hands deep is a terrible play as they have alot of potential and they want to see a flop.

When you get 3 bet deep op you want to be 4 betting with bluff hands like Axo Kxo. hands you know you won't stack off with if called etc, this blends well when you 4 bet AA KK as you will get called more lighter.

I would 4 bet shove QQ 150 deep, maybe not JJ and prob only KK AA 200 deep.

in any 3bet four bet pot you need to no what there play back range is and there calling range, and what they think yours is etc
 
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