Seeking Poker Wisdom from the Poker Gods

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AUPhoenix

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I am seeking advice and wisdom from the great poker players here at Cardschat in a quandry I am in. I like to play the small and micro stakes ring games. That being said, if you have small pairs, suited connectors, or spaced suited connectors and are in the small blind or you are the last to act before the blinds. Do you always call or make a small raise? I seem to lose a lot of pots with these type hands because I fold them 98 % of the time. Then the flop comes out and I would have flopped a flush, straight, or two pair or some kind of very descent hand. Any advise would be much appreciated. Thanks, ladies and gents.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Suited connectors & small pairs require one of two things:

1) Initiative & fold equity - the ability to win the pot by getting your opponent to fold (usually by light 3-betting or continuation betting).

or

2) Implied odds - Knowledge that your opponent holds a very strong hand preflop, but that is unlikely to improve beyond one pair postflop. In addition to this knowledge, you need to have enough money left in your effective stacks to get sufficiently paid off when you hit a big hand.

If you don't have one of those two things, just muck'em, because they're just weak hands. And be sure not to change which (#1 or #2) you decide you have mid-hand, because its pretty rare that you have both.
 
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BenLZ

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If there's no raise, you should generally be completing the blinds (calling) with the hands you mentioned.
 
KyleJRM

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If there's no raise, you should generally be completing the blinds (calling) with the hands you mentioned.

Why?

You should be raising with those hands.
 
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BenLZ

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Why?

You should be raising with those hands.

Out of the blinds? He's talking suited connectors, suited gap connectors, and small pairs. You want to raise out of the small blind with those in a multiway pot? If it's heads up go ahead, but in a multiway pot I'd want to get in cheap.

He's definitely losing value by folding those in the SB.
 
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Ubercroz

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I hate the SB, if I play a hand there I'm pretty much raising.
I raise with any PP, I fold my suited connectors because I dont really want to be out of position with a hand that is more likely to hit middle pair and draws than anything else. Then you get in this terrible spot of being out of position when your suit flops and now what? (pp are easier, either you get the stack in with a set or you can chuck it after the cbet)

Do you b/f? no, thats ridiculous, because your hand wants to see those next cards, you have no business betting there with a hand that is likely to improve post flop.

Do you b/c? no because donking from the SB is stupid, and calling a reraise is silly.

Do you c/c? yeah, why not turn your hand face up for everybody to see and get ZERO impled odds when your draw completes.

Do you c/r? Thats probably the best option, but it still sucks because people call your stupid check raise too much and when the flush completes you have to worry that the other guy called with the nut(or even a little better) draw and its tough to do anything because now you feel crappy about getting the hand you wanted to get, and you'll pay them off- because you have to.

I allow myself to lose .5bb's every ring to the sb recognizing that the sb is a negative equity position. No reason to get cute there, especially in the micros. (I do steal from the SB though, but that's way different)
 
BelgoSuisse

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2) Implied odds - Knowledge that your opponent holds a very strong hand preflop, but that is unlikely to improve beyond one pair postflop. In addition to this knowledge, you need to have enough money left in your effective stacks to get sufficiently paid off when you hit a big hand.

Beyond microstakes, implied odds are often overrated. Set mining small pp is fine, because the strong hands you flop are properly disguised, but beyond sets, it's really hard to make strong hands and get paid off.

I prefer to flat call IP with suited connectors vs a loose (i.e. weak) range than versus a strong range for implied odds. Because vs a weak range, you don't need to flop a big hand, you just need to flop enough equity (i.e. draws) to justify playing the hand aggressively and winning most of your money by having your opponent fold.
 
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BenLZ

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I hate the SB, if I play a hand there I'm pretty much raising.
I raise with any PP, I fold my suited connectors because I dont really want to be out of position with a hand that is more likely to hit middle pair and draws than anything else. Then you get in this terrible spot of being out of position when your suit flops and now what? (pp are easier, either you get the stack in with a set or you can chuck it after the cbet)

I don't understand this. If you've got like 2 or 3 other limpers, you're pretty much given great odds to call. I don't know why you'd want to build a bigger pot OOP with a speculative hand that can pay off big with the right flop, but will miss a good portion of the time. Well, how many opponents are you playing against? If it's heads up vs the BB I can understand a bet or fold strategy, but IMO it's a major leak that you only bet or fold the SB when there's limpers and you're getting a good price.
 
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Ubercroz

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I don't understand this. If you've got like 2 or 3 other limpers, you're pretty much given great odds to call. I don't know why you'd want to build a bigger pot OOP with a speculative hand that can pay off big with the right flop, but will miss a good portion of the time. Well, how many opponents are you playing against? If it's heads up vs the BB I can understand a bet or fold strategy, but IMO it's a major leak that you only bet or fold the SB when there's limpers and you're getting a good price.


I think its a little extreme to say that not limping in the SB with other limpers is a major leak.

IF its a leak, its a minor one since all I'm really doing is not completing, so I lose 1/2bb per ring. Yeah that adds up, but I think a bigger leak is putting too much money in the pot OOP with no real plan of action of how you're going to deal with that postflop. IF you want to bet when you hit check when you miss I guess ok, but I prefer to avoid weird spots and the SB puts you in them.
 
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BenLZ

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I'd say you're missing out on some very good value. You don't need to hit this flop often for it to be a good call.

For someone who really dislikes calling OOP, I don't see how you then advocate raising and building a bigger pot with a low-medium PP OOP. Personally, I'm fine seeing a flop cheaply OOP - I just don't like building a bigger pot when I'm first to act, but if I'm getting 7:1 on a call which can hit some really big flops I'm getting in on that cheaply.
 
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Ubercroz

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The reason is initiative and weeding out some overcards.

Yes you are OOP, but you have already represented strength and can cbet the flop to take it down, so you dont have to improve your hand.

You also probably HAVE the best hand with a pp so you have some justification in protecting it.

When you hit your set the pot is bigger so its easier to stack someone with a couple pot sized- or less than potsized- bets.

Your pocket pair is EASIER to play postflop oop. if there are over cards and someone gives you resistace you know where you're at. You're not likely to hit a draw so you don't have a lot of wishy washy calls or super tough decisions (usually).

So yes, I will build a bigger pot OOP with some hands and not with others. And I have a good idea why I do it. I do it with PP because its easy to figure out where you are in relation to your opponent. suited connectors dont always play well oop postflop (one of the reasons you dont raise with them UTG much).

I make more $ with a PP OOP then I do with suited connectors- probably because I am able to make better decisions more often. If you are comfortable with calling do it.

I also play 6-max, so the situation arises less often :)
 
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