Running badly or playing badly?

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AcesFullOfDonks

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I play micro/low stakes poker online and recently I've been on a real bad down swing. Playing a few hours a day, for the past two months I've just been losing buyin after buyin on cash tables and my BR has taken a massive hit and is now exceptionally low. (A couple of max buyins at the lowest limit is what I have remaining).
Part of the reason for my downswing is due to a change in style of play. I generally play a TAG style, bordering on even being classified as a NIT. However, I was stalling. My winnings were almost non-existent for quite a while. I decided this was because my play was very transparent. i.e. Betting when I have it, check-folding when I don't.
Anyway, I decided I wanted to incorporate more into my game play. More check-raising, more double barrelling, more bluffing, playing my draws in different ways. Balancing my three betting range more with bluffs, suited connectors and small pocket pairs. This has not been a fruitful experience. However, I do not wish to go back to playing the way I did before as it was painfully apparent that my opponents could read me quite easily.
I'm trying to play my opponents more than my cards now, but I seem to be doing it in the wrong spots (yes, I am fully aware of positional play).
Sometimes I'm playing my draws more aggressively (ones where I have a lot of outs), only to not hit and be forced to fold when my opponent bets the river. I'm trying to stop opponents from floating the flop by putting out double barrels into scary boards, only for them to continue calling me when I don't have a hand strong enough to continue with. My check-raises don't seem believable and I'm always getting called.
All of this has led to a dwindling BR which at its peak was enough to move up limits. Where could I be going wrong? I really need help with this as I think I've being playing some of my worst poker ever. Thanks in advance for any answers.
 
teepack

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The thing about playing at the micro stakes level is that the advanced concepts you are employing don't always work well against the caliber of players you will find at the microstakes. Just remember that you can't bluff a bad player. At those levels you almost have to play ABC poker and then hope to get into hands with players who don't know what they're doing and will chase down flushes, straights and sets all the way to the river.

But whatever you do, just realize it's part of poker. Downswings are inevitable. Just stick with it, learn as much as you can and have fun. Check out the strategy articles on this web site and others, read up on the hand histories and keep working.
 
dbchristy

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I agree with Tee. That being said as I play micro too, be willing to do a few donk moves. They wont remember that youre a TAG, they will only remember when you suckout or called with a 270 Swithh it up:)
 
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I'm the same type as you. I also I play micro-limit, change the style of play is very difficult, a lot of bluff was ended by the loss, must be patient
 
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Jreece18

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How many hands have you played and what's your bb/100? It's likely you're trying to play too complicated when you don't have the basics down. What are your stats? It's best to avoid suited connectors, etc when you are a losing player. Playing super simple and slightly nitty poker at the micros is good enough to be breakeven if not a slight winner IF you have the fundamentals down. Once you have this, then you can incorporate other things to your game such as light 3betting, etc.
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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How many hands have you played and what's your bb/100? It's likely you're trying to play too complicated when you don't have the basics down. What are your stats? It's best to avoid suited connectors, etc when you are a losing player. Playing super simple and slightly nitty poker at the micros is good enough to be breakeven if not a slight winner IF you have the fundamentals down. Once you have this, then you can incorporate other things to your game such as light 3betting, etc.

My VPIP is 18, PFR is 17, AF is 3 and 3B is 6. Generally speaking I don't pay attention to my own stats, more those of my opponents. I believe I have the fundamentals of ABC poker down as before a change in play style/adding techniques to my game I was averaging 7.8BB/100. This is over 21k hands.
I don't claim to be an expert on stats or anything but I believe that's a decent sample size to work from.
 
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Cbet/pfr awareness and steal? Those are decent stats though. So after this bad run you're still averaging 7.8bb/100?
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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No after the bad run, I'm averaging around 3.1BB/100 which usually wouldn't be so bad but I seem to be getting my money in in the wrong spots. Top two pair losing to sets on the river, flush over flush, set over set. I'm playing my decent hands well but I don't seem to be able to read players enough when my strong hands are beaten. Playing my previous NIT strategy made me feel like I was leaving money on the table when I was folding my strong/marginal hands i.e Sets on a straighty/flushy looking board. Straights on a flushy looking board...because obviously they can't always have the better hand.
Also, my cbet is 64%. Could that be a bit too high for micro tables? Normally I'd say that's a decent % but now I'm unconvinced. And my steal is 31%. Also maybe a bit too wide for micros?
 
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It can be really frustrating but look over the hands and see if there was anything you could do. After a big MTT win the past month has been horrible for me. Stack after stack in cash games and buy in after buy in at MTTs just flushed down the toilet to people who I sometimes wonder if they even look at their cards.

People just making really baffling 3, 4, and 5 bets pre with garbage like Q5o and K4o and winning against AA, KK, AK. People happily calling pot sized bets to the river for a 2 outer and getting it. People shoving all in pre with 107o and winning on the river. People giving you great odds for your 12 outer and still having them win with A4o high card. Or people betting like maniacs or calling you down with Q high to win. Or the check check, shove on the river people do in cash games with air and you're not sure if your set is good on the board. Thinking the turn gives a gut shot if they have a 6, and of course they have a 6. They happily call at the micros and even low stakes and happily get rewarded sometimes.

Which all said and done is what you want. Over the long run you want these baffling and strange plays against strong hands. But I agree it can be disheartening to work so hard build up nice pots and stacks, and see your BR go down, down, down
 
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Jreece18

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Cbet and steal are fine imo, cbet could even be a bit higher. How many hands is this bad run? Imo if you don't want to go back to being nitty, keep speculative hands to the CO/BTN. Sounds like it could just be a bad run though.
 
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In my experiences when your asking this question it likely is a combination of both.
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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Cbet and steal are fine imo, cbet could even be a bit higher. How many hands is this bad run? Imo if you don't want to go back to being nitty, keep speculative hands to the CO/BTN. Sounds like it could just be a bad run though.

It's a little over 2300 hands (I know this isn't a huge sample size but obviously things were drastic). I've resorted back to being nitty to build up my BR again so I can hopefully move to higher limits to help develop myself as a player and so I can avoid these really unskilled players. Or at least avoid most of them. Going to make sure I have 70+ max buyins for the level I want to play, for the style I want to play, just to make sure I'm rolled enough in case things go south. i.e. the players are far superior to myself in skill level.
Thanks for your answers, you've been a great help.
 
Dorugremon

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.Part of the reason for my downswing is due to a change in style of play. I generally play a TAG style, bordering on even being classified as a NIT. However, I was stalling. My winnings were almost non-existent for quite a while. I decided this was because my play was very transparent. i.e. Betting when I have it, check-folding when I don't.

This isn't something you really want to do. Chances are that your villains don't know -- or care -- that your play is "transparent". These past couple of days, the nittiest player on the site hit a couple of big scores. I know how this guy plays, yet he kept getting calls from nearly hopeless hands that were smashed before the flop. These other players just handed him their money. He'd put in a big raise and I would instamuck pocket queens and watch as another player stacked off pocket jacks against the pocket aces I knew he had from the get-go. They'd just keep calling and calling -- they weren't paying the slightest bit of attention.

Anyway, I decided I wanted to incorporate more into my game play. More check-raising, more double barrelling, more bluffing, playing my draws in different ways. Balancing my three betting range more with bluffs, suited connectors and small pocket pairs. This has not been a fruitful experience. However, I do not wish to go back to playing the way I did before as it was painfully apparent that my opponents could read me quite easily.
I'm trying to play my opponents more than my cards now, but I seem to be doing it in the wrong spots (yes, I am fully aware of positional play).
This is "fancy play syndrome", and it's a very real leak. Don't be making plays that depend on thinking opponents. They're not thinking, and are mostly playing group solitaire. At 10NL, I can think of three villains that I can level with, double and triple barrel bluff. The rest, no, just no. You either show 'em a hand, or you're done. Doesn't matter that "one and done" is easily exploitable because your opponents aren't exploiting you at all, even if they noticed in the first place. The vast majority of opponents aren't reading you. Hell, they're hardly paying attention. There is absolutely no reason to try to balance ranges against opponents that think "range" is an appliance you cook on or where cowboys work, and that "equity" has something to do with real estate.

Yeah, a nitty TAG style isn't exactly an exciting way to play. You have to decide what you'd rather have: their money or your excitement? You know what worked in the past, so go back to doing that and watch that BR grow. Worry about the fancy stuff once you get to the higher stake games where you will encounter thinking opponents.
 
dbchristy

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I learn alot from just reading post. I have so much to learn
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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This isn't something you really want to do. Chances are that your villains don't know -- or care -- that your play is "transparent". These past couple of days, the nittiest player on the site hit a couple of big scores. I know how this guy plays, yet he kept getting calls from nearly hopeless hands that were smashed before the flop. These other players just handed him their money. He'd put in a big raise and I would instamuck pocket queens and watch as another player stacked off pocket jacks against the pocket aces I knew he had from the get-go. They'd just keep calling and calling -- they weren't paying the slightest bit of attention.

This is "fancy play syndrome", and it's a very real leak. Don't be making plays that depend on thinking opponents. They're not thinking, and are mostly playing group solitaire. At 10NL, I can think of three villains that I can level with, double and triple barrel bluff. The rest, no, just no. You either show 'em a hand, or you're done. Doesn't matter that "one and done" is easily exploitable because your opponents aren't exploiting you at all, even if they noticed in the first place. The vast majority of opponents aren't reading you. Hell, they're hardly paying attention. There is absolutely no reason to try to balance ranges against opponents that think "range" is an appliance you cook on or where cowboys work, and that "equity" has something to do with real estate.

Yeah, a nitty TAG style isn't exactly an exciting way to play. You have to decide what you'd rather have: their money or your excitement? You know what worked in the past, so go back to doing that and watch that BR grow. Worry about the fancy stuff once you get to the higher stake games where you will encounter thinking opponents.
This full post opened my eyes a lot, thank you.
I never even considered that my opponents probably weren't even trying to read me. You're absolutely correct though, I'd rather have their money than a bit more action.
Also, I realise that it is 'fancy play syndrome' and I never even considered the fact that it could be a major leak (especially at low limits); that being said, some of these plays when used correctly are paramount to becoming a great poker player, which I aspire to become. My question with regard to this is at what limit do these plays become profitable?
Mid-stakes?
Nosebleed stakes?
I ask because I felt that I was at a point in my ability where I was getting the most from the micros as much as I could. 2NL and 5NL aren't providing me a challenge anymore in the cash games. I just don't think I have the BR right now to be playing 10NL. And at the risk of underestimating 10NL, I can't see the opponents being much more of a challenge.
Opinions?
 
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Jreece18

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This full post opened my eyes a lot, thank you.
I never even considered that my opponents probably weren't even trying to read me. You're absolutely correct though, I'd rather have their money than a bit more action.
Also, I realise that it is 'fancy play syndrome' and I never even considered the fact that it could be a major leak (especially at low limits); that being said, some of these plays when used correctly are paramount to becoming a great poker player, which I aspire to become. My question with regard to this is at what limit do these plays become profitable?
Mid-stakes?
Nosebleed stakes?
I ask because I felt that I was at a point in my ability where I was getting the most from the micros as much as I could. 2NL and 5NL aren't providing me a challenge anymore in the cash games. I just don't think I have the BR right now to be playing 10NL. And at the risk of underestimating 10NL, I can't see the opponents being much more of a challenge.
Opinions?

You just increase it as you go, you can do it occasionally imo. You gradually learn it so it doesn't destroy your winrate. What's your BR?
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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My current BR is $25. I know it isn't enough to move up limits at all, but like I said previously, I had some really bad losses, buyin after buyin after buyin.
I have built that back up from around $10/11 when I reverted back to my old nitty self though.
At what BR would you suggest moving up in limits and what limit should I play? I don't believe there is a massive difference at all between 2,5 and 10. Unless you can convince me otherwise? Also, with my current BR, what buyin for SnG tournaments should I be looking at? SnG tournaments are actually quite profitable for me, but I don't wanna push my luck going too high.
 
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Jreece18

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My current BR is $25. I know it isn't enough to move up limits at all, but like I said previously, I had some really bad losses, buyin after buyin after buyin.
I have built that back up from around $10/11 when I reverted back to my old nitty self though.
At what BR would you suggest moving up in limits and what limit should I play? I don't believe there is a massive difference at all between 2,5 and 10. Unless you can convince me otherwise? Also, with my current BR, what buyin for SnG tournaments should I be looking at? SnG tournaments are actually quite profitable for me, but I don't wanna push my luck going too high.

Er 2nl maximum haha. Sng or mtts has to be way more to be playing $2 buy ins. At least 20 BI at micros. More if possible. Nitty bankroll means you'll never go bust if you have the ability to beat 2nl. There might not be a difference, but the difference is variance. You can have a downswing and destroy your bankroll. You can absolutely NOT play 10nl with a $25 bankroll. Even if you can beat 10nl, you can have a 2.5 BI downswing. The fact you needed this info suggests 2nl and learn the basics. It's simply cheaper to learn at 2nl and learning mistakes such as fancy play syndrome and improper BR management is cheaper. You won't lose any amount that is not justified by the entertainment factor.
 
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I think variance is a huge factor in upswings/downswings. The amount you choose to play when in a downswing and an upswing are critical to building a bankroll and swapping stakes, but there will always be a need to constantly evolve your playing style. Perhaps you seemed out of your element (to your opponents) while altering your betting style; maybe a real bluffer would know that a donk would for sure raise that in a heartbeat, where you might have taken a few seconds longer, which bred suspicion among the other players at the table. I find it extremely important to harness a delicate balance between absolute fool and genius at the table; that way they don't think I'm anything. Perhaps not being a sociopath is your problem, lol, you could try and get crazy in freerolls to work on your timing to help with BRM and bluffing in general. ... Good luck.
 
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