twizzybop said:
Of course it is viable, you forgot 2 things which in this case makes it viable.
#1 You act 1st and #2 You are firing at him.
A higher pocket pair, trips, and A,10 would definatly make it Viable. You represented top pair with the 10. So keep on firing while going 1st to put money in his pocket. Any constant re-raising is going to make you suspectable to folding.
Smooth calling with A-10 is a horrible tactic here. Absolutely dreadful. He's vulnerable to so many different cards that may come that not raising with such a vulnerable hand is awful.
That said: Someone who smooth calls with marginal hands (a pair of 10s certainly qualifies) is not someone who fits the description "hyper aggressive."
Not any two cards. But 30% of them, yes.
Yet 70% of them will destroy your hand.
What? You must not have understood: He raises on average about 30% of his preflop hands. How many of those hands do you think have me beat right now?
Reasons are previously mentioned with the recent addition of again you act 1st with a very marginal hand. You always need a good hand to come out of the blinds with while acting 1st, especially on pre-flop raise from the button who is a hyper aggresive player. A player like this you must have him betting into you, and not the other way around.
Out of curiousity, presuming you somehow misclicked and called preflop, would you have folded when he bet on the flop? Would you have called? Would you have raised?
Let's examine the three options:
Folding. Out of the question. You have top pair, and even if that's not good enough, you're still likely to have 5 outs (to hit two pair or trips), and it's only a single bet in a 7 bet pot. You don't quite have the
pot odds, but you definitely have the implied odds - and that's if you somehow
know that you're beat right now.
Calling or raising. Better than folding, given your outs and the pot size. But raising has the added benefit of possibly driving out the weak limper in MP, and that's
definitely something you want to do. He could call a single bet with a hand as weak as Q7, and you want that queen the hell out of your pot. Don't let him draw cheaply. This pot is reaching a size where it's worth fighting for, and your equity goes up a lot if you can drive out any hand that contains overcards to the board. It's possible that raising this flop will also drive out villain (although it's unlikely - he's borderline correct to call with most two overcards), but that shouldn't discourage you.
Yet for some reason this aggresive player isn't paying you off either. Again you want aggresive players betting into you, and not vice versa. You also want a good hand to extract as much money from the hyper aggresive player.
Oh, he's paying me off, alright. He called my raise on the flop, he called my bet on the turn, and now I check to him on the river to allow him to try to bluff me out of a pot. A passive player will check behind on this river with garbage. An aggressive player will jump at the sign of perceived weakness and try to steal it. Hence this thread.
Yet there was no re-raises from him to do such a thing. That is why it is advised/guidlines to let the hyper-aggresive/meglo maniacs bet like mad with any 2 cards while you fold looking for the better starting hands.
I could have checked the turn, and he would have bet. I could have checkraised him there, but that would have folded him out. Instead, I bet, and planning to check the river to induce a bluff. I can't do this with a passive player (because then betting the river would be better, but they would fold almost any hand that I can beat).
I wouldn't be in this hand to play such a guessing game.
I am trying to win, not have my bankroll fluctuate on a guessing game.
Then this may be something you need to work on. It's absolutely imperative that you try to put your opponent on a hand all the time, because that's the only way to improve your handreading.
Not when he is Smooth Calling. You are betting into him, any raise and you may fold. So in essence he is making maximum profit by you betting into him.
And risking to be outdrawn by Jx, if he has a pair of 10s with a better kicker than me. No, smooth calling with a marginal hand is NOT the way to go, and it is
not the way of a hyperaggressive player. Calling and hoping to catch a bluff, on the other hand, is.
Its a possibility, again you are betting into him. Acting last while one has a pretty strong hand is the way to go. You checked while acting 1st remember, so a bet would normally make a person fold especially acting 1st.
So normally a re-raise over your raise would put up a red flag. So why not just call on his part to eliminate the red flag if he knows he has the much stronger hand. While letting you continously bet into him.
If you, in limit shorthanded poker, do not raise when you think you have the better hand, you're missing out on a lot of profit. If he thought I was just
bluffing, this would be an okay way to play it. But why would he think that? If he believes me when I tell him I have a top pair, he also knows I'll be forced to call a raise from him. Not raising is terrible.
You may have heard from him. I just told you why you may not hear from him. Why scare you away from putting any more money into the pot when you are constantly betting into him to start. Any re-raise from him will definatly put up a red flag. You represented a 10.. He stop representing a strong hand just by calling(yet a viable option of having a good hand while you bet into him).
And again I have to ask: What does "hyper aggressive" describe to you?
Many players feel they must defend their blinds by calling all raises even with marginal hands. Don’t waste additional money on marginal hands
Don't give generalized advice that in no way takes into account who you're playing against. If a rock had raised, I would have folded. I've folded much stronger hands than this in the big blind.
One doesn't have to defend thier blinds on marginal hands.
I won't disagree there is a chance you have best hand pre-flop but also a chance that you didn't.
I don't have to have the best hand preflop to profitably call, though, I hope you realize that.
Now, here's the thing. With skilled enough opponents, you won't get the privilege of waiting for monster hands that you can safely raise. They will outplay you if you do this, because you won't get paid enough when you do get them, and you will be forced to pay too much in blinds in between. Learning to play marginal hands well is difficult, but absolutely necessary when playing tougher competition. It's not essential at 2/4 (although there's a noticeable difference between 1/2 and 2/4 - there are actually internet professionals starting at the 2/4 limits), but it definitely puts more money in your pocket.
BBB:
bubbasbestbabe said:
I am saying that you are the player here who is making the amature move with the hand you have unless the player you are playing against is a total donk. If this was me and I had anything better than the 10"s I would let you hang yourself.
When you say "let me hang myself," do you mean the same "smooth calling" that Twizzy is talking about? If so, what range of hands would you be calling down with here? There are very few hands that are not extremely vulnerable, and failing to raise to protect all but those hands is a huge mistake (that you shouldn't be making).
I said it once, but I'll say it again: It's vital that you try to put villain on a hand here. Playing the way I did is obviously correct if he has a worse hand than me exactly 50% of the time (as there is some dead money generated by the guy in MP, I would show some profit from that).
Do you think he has a better hand than me more than 50% of the time? How many percent of the hands that he'll raise with preflop have me beat on this flop?
