Returning to micros after 3 years - struggling a bit

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richkillian

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Hi all,

I returned to poker after a 3 year break a couple of weeks ago. I play almost exclusively full ring zoom cash.

3 years ago I was a winning player at the smallest of the microstakes 14 bb/100 @2NL and 4bb/100 @5NL (150k + sample size).

When I returned at 2NL I realised almost instantly that poker had become a little bit tougher at these stakes. Everyone is playing nitty, very few limpers and a lot more 3 betting pre than there used to be.

Anyway this is fine, I've opened up a bit rather than just nitting my way through 2NL like I did before. 16/14 6 3 bet are my stats. I was running at about 7-8 bb/100 pretty consistently but as of the last 15k + hands I have had a nightmare. I am now at 2 bb/100, but my all in EV is about 5 bb/100. The gap in EV tells a tiny bit of the story though, I have spent the last 15k+ hands just not getting paid off at all. I've been going thousands and thousands of hands without stacking someone. Also, the majority of the time that I've hit a set or another big hand, the board has been so dangerous that putting my stack in would be reckless (I haven't just been folding after signs of danger though).

I was carrying on through it playing what i still think is solid poker (I've read quite a lot and my strategy for beating the micros from 3 years ago feels like muscle memory).

Basically, I'm not used to such long swings at the lowest of the micros. I've started to tilt slightly now though so I thought I'd take a break. Can swings like this happen at such low stakes or is my brain playing tricks on me and I'm I've actually just turned crap? I've spent a good amount of time reviewing my hands afterwards and it seems like I've been playing a solid ABC game, all my stats seem to suggest so too. Everyone is very nitty but it's still very profitable to steal from them and exploit them and the nitty fish, I am just never getting paid off with big hands.

I'm rambling, basically can this happen at 2NL or do I just need to take a break and read up on some more micro strategy? Can anyone recommend any books? Maybe some on the mental game would be good.

Thanks.
 
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richkillian

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Just a quick update on this, after 15k hands of not getting paid off at all I played a 2k hands session last night where I kept stacking people. Winrate is back up to something relatively acceptable and I'm now rolled for NL5 so will move up tonight. I guess I just forgot how much of an absolute beast variance can be during my break from poker.
 
WabiSabi

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Zoom is much harder than regular tables as it attracts all the regs and grinders.I find 6 max regular tables very easy to beat in the micros on any site.
 
bruno13xs

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good luck in your return to poker hope you continue to win.
 
WabiSabi

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Basically, I'm not used to such long swings at the lowest of the micros. I've started to tilt slightly now though so I thought I'd take a break. Can swings like this happen at such low stakes or is my brain playing tricks on me and I'm I've actually just turned crap?.

These runs can happen at any lvl variance doesn't discriminate.I've been on prolonged runs of hundreds of thousands of hands where ive doubted i will ever be able to beat even 4nl anymore.But eventually it swings back in your favour if your playing good winning poker.
 
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I have a very hard time playing anything less than 25NL. Anything lower just isn't worth the time spent. It causes me to tilt in a very strange way, it's very subtle, sort of like boredom.

I have always suggested that people skip the very lowest stakes even if it means losing for a bit when you start.

I suggest saving up about $600 and deposit it and start at 25NL, but that's just my opinion.

Good luck!
 
WabiSabi

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I have a very hard time playing anything less than 25NL. Anything lower just isn't worth the time spent. It causes me to tilt in a very strange way, it's very subtle, sort of like boredom.

I have always suggested that people skip the very lowest stakes even if it means losing for a bit when you start.

I suggest saving up about $600 and deposit it and start at 25NL, but that's just my opinion.

Good luck!

The stakes shouldn't affect your decisions it's 100bb whatever the stakes.I'm perfectly happy playing anything from 2nl to 100nl.And i often only deposit a bankroll for 4nl on a new site and i actually enjoy the process of building through the stakes.But then i play as a hobby and not as a profession.But a novice starting at 25nl is a recipe for disaster for them.
 
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Smokewood

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The stakes shouldn't affect your decisions it's 100bb whatever the stakes.I'm perfectly happy playing anything from 2nl to 100nl.And i often only deposit a bankroll for 4nl on a new site and i actually enjoy the process of building through the stakes.But then i play as a hobby and not as a profession.But a novice starting at 25nl is a recipe for disaster for them.



Totally disagree.
I played some 10NL last night. I was running like god and after 45 minutes most of the players had left the table. I couldn't have played any better, and I think I won every hand I was in.
After all of that I was up a whopping $14.
It was a total waste of my time. I could have made 3 or 4 times that much just staying at work an extra hour.

So to me, it's part of the equation.
Heck I made 140BB is 45 minutes - so what? It was only $14

Good luck in what you do....
 
WabiSabi

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I don't believe people who are playing 2nl-10nl are wasting their time and $14 to many people is a'lot of money.I just don't think the best advise to novice players is to jump in at 25nl and lose thousands of dollars. while learning the game
 
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I don't believe people who are playing 2nl-10nl are wasting their time and $14 to many people is a'lot of money.I just don't think the best advise to novice players is to jump in at 25nl and lose thousands of dollars. while learning the game



WTF?
How would they lose thousands of dollars?
Use proper BRM and set a stopping point.
They would have to lose an entire buy-in 24 times in a row to lose just the $600 they started with.
A blind monkey can avoid that.
 
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janisromanov

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now players are absolutely unpredictable at low limits. Games is all random
 
koisug

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why are you so long time not playing, how you lived these years without poker?? Maybe your mother (wife) did not allow you to play, or you are a gangster and was in prison.)))
 
koisug

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But seriously, I can't agree with you. This is us changing, and the game remains the same. I don't notice any major changes, though, there were quite long periods without the game. Not as long as you, but still.
 
WabiSabi

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WTF?
How would they lose thousands of dollars?
Use proper BRM and set a stopping point.
They would have to lose an entire buy-in 24 times in a row to lose just the $600 they started with.
A blind monkey can avoid that.


So they would have to drop to play 10nl and then probably 5nl anyway when they inevitably lose.Why would they start at 25nl and drop down rather than start at 2nl or 5nl and build up.It seems very back to front to me.
 
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Samsamsonite

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Discipline and bankroll management. It took me years to realize that bankroll management is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of a game.
 
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Smokewood

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So they would have to drop to play 10nl and then probably 5nl anyway when they inevitably lose.Why would they start at 25nl and drop down rather than start at 2nl or 5nl and build up.It seems very back to front to me.

Except I would NOT drop down below 25NL regardless of my bankroll.
With $600 you have given yourself 24 buy ins.
 
supernuts25

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I know exactly what your talking about, I used to be a winning player around black Friday, took a long break about 4 years from online anyways, came back to feel like micro stake pros at every table,
I don't feel like my game has gotten worse by any means but im obviously not up to online times, keep grinding and research until you find that spot my friend
 
WabiSabi

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Except I would NOT drop down below 25NL regardless of my bankroll.
With $600 you have given yourself 24 buy ins.

So then they could lose thousands if they keep topping up a 25nl bankroll, 24 buy in's is absolutely nothing for a complete novice.
 
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Smokewood

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So then they could lose thousands if they keep topping up a 25nl bankroll, 24 buy in's is absolutely nothing for a complete novice.

agree to disagree, have a great day
 
JusThieF

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Mate micros are pro, within this week i started at ppt 0,01 millions mtt was winner a the 2 next stages too and from 0,03$ im atm at buyin 500+30$ and all profits + from the points i earned etc ... its the way u can make bankroll form nothink....
 
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richkillian

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I can see your point, but I know for sure that I am not good enough for NL25 (or NL10 at the moment for that matter). What I have thought of doing to accelerate progress, is topping up my bankroll once I've earned my way up to the next stake.

So for example, I've built my roll to 20 BI for NL5 now, so I'm moving up. I was planning on having a 4 buy in shot, but I might deposit an extra 6 buy ins (before playing NL5). This would give me a better chance of suceeding in my first shot and not waste time having to go back down to NL2 if bad variance strikes. I'm thinking of doing this every time I move up. It will mean that I can relax more, play better and not play scared (in theory). I have no problem losing the deposits. What do people think of this?

The aggressive psychological warfare poker side of poker excites me the most. NL25 seems to be the first stake where this becomes common, this is why I want to get there. I'm more motivated in just getting good at poker than I am about the money.

I enjoy the process of moving up the stakes. I could throw money at NL25 now but I don't think I've got a good enough mental game to not tilt hard when I inevitably keep getting pushed around and busting out until I develop the necessary poker skills.
 
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richkillian

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I took the break as I was a student back then and my student loan ran out so my poker bankroll had to fill the gap ☹️

I don't know why it took me so long to come back, but it's good to be home! Zoom NL2 has definitely changed a lot in 3 years though, it's night and day. I used to be able to stack someone any time they had TPTK. Now I had a 10k + hand stretch of not getting paid off at all. Just looking at HUD stats alone you can tell it's far more nitty. I can't speak for any other poker type though.
 
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richkillian

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I feel you mate, it's certainly changed a lot. I do like a challenge though. Good luck on your journey.
 
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richkillian

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I've only done a few thousand hands at 5NL but it doesn't seem too difficult. There's still a few fish in the zoom pool and plenty of weak regs (and a few tough ones). I'm running quite a lot under all in EV (4 buy ins) considering the small amount of hands, this shot could have gone south easily. Somehow I've still managed to get a solid winrate.

I was shocked to see that there was never anyone in the full ring 5NL zoom pool, I haven't seen more than 2 people in it all weekend. Full ring was all I've ever played but now I've been forced into 6 max. I read a quick blog entry by blackrain on how to adjust and already I much prefer it. A bit more aggressive and less nitty, I love it.

I'm looking forward to having a bigger sample for my HUD and hopefully some steady progress to 10NL, but that's a long way off now.
 
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