Raising the flop with top pair "to see where you're at"

6

6bet me

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So I got into a discussion with some live poker friends and all of them believe that it's a good strategy to raise the flop with top pair "to see where you're at".

We came up with a hypothetical:
You're playing with 150bb stacks. Villain raises to 6bb (standard opening raise size for live poker) and you call on BTN with AJo.
Flop comes Js 9h 8h
Villain Cbets to 9bb.
Is it a good strategy to raise the flop to 27bb here "to see where you're at"? And then fold to a 3bet shove?

They argue that by raising, you retake the initiative and you gain a lot of important information about the strength of the villain's hand. Another argument they gave was that the villain could have a hand like KQo and you don't want to let them spike a K, Q or T on the turn.

What is your opinion on this?
 
TimovieMan

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I only bet/raise for value or as a bluff. Not "for information".

What information do you get when he flats? Or when he raises for that matter, because 3-betting AhTh+ and even TT is going to happen often on that board as well.


This sounds like advice from bad players that are using generalities they've heard somewhere.
Besides, probing tends to give more info than it gains, imo.
 
mbrenneman0

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My opinion is that you should encourage them to continue thinking this way.

Say "you can't tell where you're at if you don't probe the pot"


.... But don't actually play this way, just feed their imaginative poker fairy tales.
 
Cherubael

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Yeaaaaah, doesn't sound like a great strategy to me either.

You may gain more information but at what cost? You're re-opening the betting, and building the pot with a small hand (TP) and especially in the given example where the board is extremely drawy.

If they just call the pot will be 69BB after the flop and with more streets to bet you're often going to get pot committed, which on any board isn't great with top pair.

You've also said that you'll fold to a 3-bet shove but what if it's a marginal raise?

I think you'll get more information for a much better cost by just calling and seeing what they do on the turn. You're in position so you'll have seen another card and you'll know if they've betted or checked it.

E.g If a KQT comes and they bet a large amount you have your information and you can fold. If it doesn't come and they check you can probably put them on a draw and try and pick it up yourself. If it doesn't come and they bet they're either holding something else or bluffing, in which case you can assess based on the type of player they are. All of this and you haven't had to risk the extra 18BB on the flop, which e.g. if they have an overpair or higher they're not going to fold.
 
tetragorod

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My opinion is that you should encourage them to continue thinking this way.

Say "you can't tell where you're at if you don't probe the pot"


.... But don't actually play this way, just feed their imaginative poker fairy tales.


perhaps, but it is only one side of the coin , but still:)
 
IronHaji1989

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I would raise here depending on the game
 
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jsh169

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That is a pretty bad flop to raise, will there be certain villains sure, but generally never raising that flop with a 1 pair type of hand. I will raise tptk for value or even raise the flop with top pair against habitual cbetters 80%+ at times, not all the time, but I'm way more apt to raise him than say someone who cbets 60%.
 
BentleyBoy

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Hmm. I have pondered this for some time (the clock would have been thrown at me by now, but hey it's only a game) before responding and here are my thoughts on this scenario.

First of all, there is much more to consider that just the cards in your hand and those on the table. You don't state which position the villain is on the table. This is pretty important in terms of his potential holding to assist you to asses his cards.

Furthermore, there is no detail of the styles of play that have been observed and displayed, both by the villain and the hero. Is this a standard play for the villain, (c betting the flop) and what have been the outcomes of him doing so previously?

27BB is effectively 1/6 of the hero's stack. What are the chances of the villain calling (or failing/shoving) in this situation? The answer to this (added to all the other considerations) will determine whether a 27 BB raise is appropriate or whether you should flat call or make a different sized raise?

What do you assess as the villains chances of having a better hand than you? This will go together with the above point to determine what level bet to put in.

The simple answer is that you are not going to fold, but determining how to play is key and relies on much more information than you have proposed, all of which will be available to you.

As for putting money in to get information, tell me of a player who has never done this ( albeit they may not think they are actually doing it) but determining the cost of that information is key. Don't splash your cash cos you will lose it.

Good luck

BB
 
R

reiniiz

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It think it could go in two ways, depends on the board. On this kind of board I would check/call and on the river if it`s not something really bad (f.ex. another straight card, paired board etc.) maybe would see where he`s at, if you like to stick with this idea. Another option, for like top paired flop with neutral cards would see the situation. Bet - shove him, Check - bet. On that case I would go a bit aggressive, but would consider upcoming situation as well.
I am not afraid of critics, cause I`m total amateur, so oppinions are accepted.
 
Beanfacekilla

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So I got into a discussion with some live poker friends and all of them believe that it's a good strategy to raise the flop with top pair "to see where you're at".

We came up with a hypothetical:
You're playing with 150bb stacks. Villain raises to 6bb (standard opening raise size for live poker) and you call on BTN with AJo.
Flop comes Js 9h 8h
Villain Cbets to 9bb.
Is it a good strategy to raise the flop to 27bb here "to see where you're at"? And then fold to a 3bet shove?

They argue that by raising, you retake the initiative and you gain a lot of important information about the strength of the villain's hand. Another argument they gave was that the villain could have a hand like KQo and you don't want to let them spike a K, Q or T on the turn.

What is your opinion on this?

Big ole thumbs down. Your friends are droolers.
 
B

Binraker

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Raising to see where you're at doesn't sound like a thoughtful bet. Sounds more like betting coz you can't think of anything else to do. Call and see what develops sounds like the best plan.
 
partz

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i raise only if i do a semi bluff or a bluff if im sure about it. raising just to see how the game evolve its ok if u think have a real chance to get somthing from it, also people that wait to get into a flush or stright sometimes just call instead of raising they big or shove, thinking they caught you into a trap. so thats my opinion and i do alot of raises to see the cards but only if this variants that i expose are possible.
 
R

Running Nose II

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Keep on playing like this and you are going to lose a stack of money. You don't play or necessary need this information, you play to win cash.
 
D

diegocampos

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wet board - and you have top pair top kicker - with more outs i raise o re raise - more outs like open ended
 
billbaffles

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I think it is opponent dependent. Is the player a TAG, LAG, NIT, etc? Does the player always C-bet? There are a ton of other questions about the opponent I would need to answer before i would systematically re-raise TPTK in the example. If the player is a NIT i have to figure overpair or set. Also, would I call the pre-flop raise with QT and would my opponent know that so if i did re-raise he could put me on a hand like QT and fold. There are quite a few other questions related to the situation that would lead to my decision whether it be call, raise, or fold. I would stay away from systematic decisions that are based only on my hand.
 
P

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Generally, I'm not a fan of reopening with a re-raise. You can get yourself into some sticky situations by doing this. If you know the opponent's play very well...for example he will most often be doing this with air and will fold to a reraise immediately, then maybe its an okay play, but I would tend to check/call and reevaluate on turn and river. Why open yourself up and possibly commit yourself to supporting a hand that might cost you a bunch?
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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If villain plays his hand face up and it would enable you to easily get away from top pair then perhaps. But 99% of the time I play with whatever I think the optimal line is, and not to "see where im at".
 
M

MakeUcryalot

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Lol what? Wrong. An OOP bet on that flop means whether 1)they have QQ+ and maybe AK if they're ballsy and they want to see where THEY are at or 2) they actually and most probably flopped a straight/open ended straight draw. Either way you can either 1) fold or 2)raise. I'm ballsy so depending on stack sizes/player strength i might CBet the flop with roughly 33% of the pot. This only has to work 1/3 times to be profitable and will let you know if they have it or not. If they go all in or raise just cut your losses. Also AJ isn't really that strong. But fold that flop and that bet.
 
Aces2w1n

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im typically 3betting pre or folding tbh

that board isnt good for us because we maybe be infront but whatever happens our opponent will have us crushed or have huge equity.... we got more of a showdown value hand want to get to river cheap...

not much fold equity... i cant see where we make money from this hand on flop
 
Dorugremon

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So I got into a discussion with some live poker friends and all of them believe that it's a good strategy to raise the flop with top pair "to see where you're at".

We came up with a hypothetical:
You're playing with 150bb stacks. Villain raises to 6bb (standard opening raise size for live poker) and you call on BTN with AJo.
Flop comes Js 9h 8h
Villain Cbets to 9bb.
Is it a good strategy to raise the flop to 27bb here "to see where you're at"? And then fold to a 3bet shove?

They argue that by raising, you retake the initiative and you gain a lot of important information about the strength of the villain's hand. Another argument they gave was that the villain could have a hand like KQo and you don't want to let them spike a K, Q or T on the turn.

What is your opinion on this?

Everything said here makes perfect sense for fixed limit. In the above scenario, use the "cheap street" to see where you stand, retake the initiative, and protect your hand against an overcard that could beat you, or kill your action. If you run into a set, overpair, or the straight, it just costs you a few bets. Even at fixed limit, given the board texture, you might want to just call if your villain is such that he won't react to your raise in a predictable manner that clarifies where you stand.

It's a bad idea at no-limit when stacks are deep and the SPR high. If you raise then fold to a big re-raise, all you're doing is donating. If you run into a better hand, it could cost you your stack. In high SPR pots, your A Number One priority is stack protection, not hand protection, and a hand like this needs to be played slowly; keep that pot small. If that means just calling a standard 1/2 pot c-bet that allows a bad card to roll off, them's the breaks. At least you're still in action and most of your stack is still intact.

TPTK (and big overpairs) is usually a through ticket at fixed limit, but not at no-limit. You need to be able to play these slowly, and get away from them if your opponent's not being co-operative in keeping the pot small. That's a big mistake FLHE players (or fish who take advise meant for FL play and try to apply it to NL) make all the time: overplaying TPTK, and they pay dearly for it. In no-limit play, these hands usually win you small pots and lose big ones.

If it's a small SPR pot, that's different. In that case, your TPTK is a good hand, and you'd reraise OTF, not to gain information, but for value with the intent to set up a stack-off on the turn or river. If you double up, YEAY! If you double up your vill, you haven't really done much damage to your stack. If you break him, you can either make him reload, or free up his seat for a more well heeled fish.
 
MarceloMC

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2 sets of high pairs and/or 2 sets of top suited connectors are strong and good hands to bem and raise pre-flop...But Omaha is a Hard game to play pos-flop...
 
G

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Raising does get you information, but that is not a primary good reason to bet.
It could be argued that the raise/fold strategy is for information, but it is really designed to win the pot immediately.
 
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ronykf

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Raising is the best to get information
 
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