Questions about poker, need help ASAP :P.

M

Marlbororeds1

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Total posts
5
Chips
0
Now I know how to play and everything, and I know the card rankings(AA, KK, AK suited etc) and when to fold, raise, call, etc and how to limp into the pot and chase it cheaply if I can, etc. I also am about to read a few 5-7 books(super system 2, getting started on hold'em, theory of poker, small stakes holdem, holdem for advanced players, tournament poker by david, the first 2 harrington books on holdem, psychology of poker) on this game and try my best to succeed. Recommend better books if you want and tell me if I could read something better and replace any of those.

Now generally speaking, i'd like to know the best answers to these questions.
Thanks for any help and responses! I would like all of them answered if possible!

1. If the win odds are higher than the pot odds, I should call or raise, correct? Now what is the correct percentage of the pot that I should raise if I do raise. Because I feel that when I do raise, I raise randomly and to anything.

2. What is a good win percentage to call or raise? Where do you guys make the cutoff? I understand that you might limp in with a 50% or raise well with a 75%, but what is the general rule?

Last question.

3. I have been playing on Bovada(US player), and I am just wondering what the best HUD and materials are to use. I heard of some pokertracker? I have a license for Hold'em indicator and I have been using that. Is there anything to pair up with that? I also know Bovada does limit huds so what are my best options and am I able to use more than one at once? Tableninja is good?

Thank you!
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
Well first, I'd argue to get the notion of limping as a "strategy" out of your mind entirely. There are specific situations where limping may be correct, but generally speaking... no. Just don't get in the bad habit. If your hand is good enough to play, you should be coming in for a raise. I will assume that you limp your weaker hands -- almost certainly these are hands you should be folding. Rather than focusing on or even considering limping, focus on position play and premium hands. You don't say whether you play FR, 6max, or HU, but I'm going to assume FR since that's where most beginners start.

As to the books you mention, with the exception of maybe Small Stakes Poker (if that's the Ed Miller et al book I'm thinking of), most of them are dated and aimed at live poker, not online poker. While some fundamentals will apply, you can also learn a lot of bad habits for modern online games if you're not experienced enough to distill the contents and use what is applicable and toss what isn't. Live poker and online poker are very different animals. Online poker is much more difficult at similar stakes. Online 10NL, maybe even 5NL, is often equated to the same skill level as live 200NL or even higher.

Likewise tournament poker requires a different strategy than cash poker. Deepstack poker is different from shortstack poker. Micro-stakes vs high stakes. Full-ring vs 6max vs HU requires adjustments as well. In other words, the approach you take is highly dependent on the type of game you're playing and the type of people you're playing against.

So with that said, to attempt to address your questions:
  1. Pot odds are but one aspect of poker, but they are an important rule of thumb to a novice player. Generally speaking, yes if your equity in the hand (meaning the amount of the pot you should expect to win) is greater than the pot odds, then you're getting the correct price to stay in the hand. Generally this applies to calling. Raising is an option that accomplishes different things (such as narrow your opponent's range, bluff, establish an image, etc.) but isn't really associated with pot odds. The correct raise amount depends on a number of variables. Again, you should be betting to accomplish something. Do you want your opponent to call or fold? And while variation is good, you don't want it to be "random." You want to bet the amount that stands to earn you the most money without giving off a bet-sizing tell. Remember that aggressive play is far better than passive play. Limping and calling are passive plays. Opening and raising are aggressive plays. You should be doing more of the latter and less of the former overall.
  2. Not sure I understand what you're asking here. Again, you seem to be focused on limping, which you should immediately disabuse yourself of as a general rule.
  3. Find another site, lol. Bovada is a haven for recreational gamblers who treat poker like just another sportsbook/pit wager. Which means they're really soft, sure, but if your goal is to use a tracker for your own self-study, then they suck. You simply cannot do so effectively with anonymous players. You can maybe identify some of your most egregious leaks, such as positional leaks, but many of your leaks will come from playing incorrectly against certain player types, and since you can't accumulate stats on players you can't really know what those player types are.
 
M

Marlbororeds1

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Total posts
5
Chips
0
Well first, I'd argue to get the notion of limping as a "strategy" out of your mind entirely. There are specific situations where limping may be correct, but generally speaking... no. Just don't get in the bad habit. If your hand is good enough to play, you should be coming in for a raise. I will assume that you limp your weaker hands -- almost certainly these are hands you should be folding. Rather than focusing on or even considering limping, focus on position play and premium hands. You don't say whether you play FR, 6max, or HU, but I'm going to assume FR since that's where most beginners start.

As to the books you mention, with the exception of maybe Small Stakes Poker (if that's the Ed Miller et al book I'm thinking of), most of them are dated and aimed at live poker, not online poker. While some fundamentals will apply, you can also learn a lot of bad habits for modern online games if you're not experienced enough to distill the contents and use what is applicable and toss what isn't. Live poker and online poker are very different animals. Online poker is much more difficult at similar stakes. Online 10NL, maybe even 5NL, is often equated to the same skill level as live 200NL or even higher.

Likewise tournament poker requires a different strategy than cash poker. Deepstack poker is different from shortstack poker. Micro-stakes vs high stakes. Full-ring vs 6max vs HU requires adjustments as well. In other words, the approach you take is highly dependent on the type of game you're playing and the type of people you're playing against.

So with that said, to attempt to address your questions:
  1. Pot odds are but one aspect of poker, but they are an important rule of thumb to a novice player. Generally speaking, yes if your equity in the hand (meaning the amount of the pot you should expect to win) is greater than the pot odds, then you're getting the correct price to stay in the hand. Generally this applies to calling. Raising is an option that accomplishes different things (such as narrow your opponent's range, bluff, establish an image, etc.) but isn't really associated with pot odds. The correct raise amount depends on a number of variables. Again, you should be betting to accomplish something. Do you want your opponent to call or fold? And while variation is good, you don't want it to be "random." You want to bet the amount that stands to earn you the most money without giving off a bet-sizing tell. Remember that aggressive play is far better than passive play. Limping and calling are passive plays. Opening and raising are aggressive plays. You should be doing more of the latter and less of the former overall.
  2. Not sure I understand what you're asking here. Again, you seem to be focused on limping, which you should immediately disabuse yourself of as a general rule.
  3. Find another site, lol. Bovada is a haven for recreational gamblers who treat poker like just another sportsbook/pit wager. Which means they're really soft, sure, but if your goal is to use a tracker for your own self-study, then they suck. You simply cannot do so effectively with anonymous players. You can maybe identify some of your most egregious leaks, such as positional leaks, but many of your leaks will come from playing incorrectly against certain player types, and since you can't accumulate stats on players you can't really know what those player types are.

What kind of books do you recommend yourself then?(top 5-10).
By the way I have been playing .25/.50 No limit holdem with a 50 dollar bankroll and got lucky enough to turn it into 300 in one day.

Yes I am from the USA though and Bovada seems very easy to play on and seems to be the only site out there that is reputable for US players.

Can you answer this though, what win odds % from my HUD should I call or raise. What is the lowest win % I can see before folding.

Is 40% enough to fold?
50%?

Just wondering. Thank you.
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
Okay, first things first: learn bankroll management. BRM. It's the most important poker lesson you will learn. While you don't need to concern yourself too much with the conventional number of buy-ins until you're at least a break-even player, 1 buy-in is certainly not going to cut it, nor is the 6 BI's you have now. I'd say at least 20. By strict BRM with $300 you shouldn't really be playing any more than 10NL which is 30 BI's, and that's cutting it very close. Your risk of ruin is very great, but if you have no problem re-depositing as often as you need to, then carry on.

Second, it's hard to recommend good books for online play these days. I have a shelf full of them and they were great in their day, but your best bet is to read strategy and hand analysis posts here, and post your own hands for review. Also consider joining a training site like DragTheBar -- most people will learn online poker better from watching coaching videos than reading a book.

And I think you keep asking the wrong questions about what to do at a specific "win odds %." I think you're getting ahead of yourself and trying to play to the HUD. Until you have a better handle on the fundamentals you're probably better off ignoring the HUD for now and thinking for yourself. 40% equity in some cases is a fistpump snap call while in others it might be a fold. Depends on a lot of the variables I mentioned earlier, nobody can give you a hard answer here -- there are no hard answers in poker. Unless you have the nuts you can never truly know your equity, you have to estimate it based on the information at hand, some of which I laid out before (villain's range, pot odds, etc. etc.). That's not even getting into the advanced subjects like SPR (stack-to-pot ratios) and other things.

BTW speaking of books and SPR, Small Stakes NLH (by Miller/Flynn/Mehta, not the red Small Stakes Poker book which is for Limit) and its predecessor Professional NLH (by the same authors) are great for getting into things like SPR, but right now that's going to be over your head and just confuse you. If you insist on using books and intend to play cash games, then I'd probably start with something like Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. It's dated but is good on fundamentals. Maybe Daniel Negreanu's Power Hold'em Strategy? I can't remember if that one was very advanced or not. Harrington's books are classics but are tournament focused, and you seem to be interested in cash games, so don't confuse yourself further. Otherwise it's just hard for me to recommend a good starter book because honestly by the time I started buying books I was beyond your stage, so I don't really have any other than maybe Gordon's boxed set.
 
M

Marlbororeds1

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Total posts
5
Chips
0
Okay, first things first: learn bankroll management. BRM. It's the most important poker lesson you will learn. While you don't need to concern yourself too much with the conventional number of buy-ins until you're at least a break-even player, 1 buy-in is certainly not going to cut it, nor is the 6 BI's you have now. I'd say at least 20. By strict BRM with $300 you shouldn't really be playing any more than 10NL which is 30 BI's, and that's cutting it very close. Your risk of ruin is very great, but if you have no problem re-depositing as often as you need to, then carry on.

Second, it's hard to recommend good books for online play these days. I have a shelf full of them and they were great in their day, but your best bet is to read strategy and hand analysis posts here, and post your own hands for review. Also consider joining a training site like DragTheBar -- most people will learn online poker better from watching coaching videos than reading a book.

And I think you keep asking the wrong questions about what to do at a specific "win odds %." I think you're getting ahead of yourself and trying to play to the HUD. Until you have a better handle on the fundamentals you're probably better off ignoring the HUD for now and thinking for yourself. 40% equity in some cases is a fistpump snap call while in others it might be a fold. Depends on a lot of the variables I mentioned earlier, nobody can give you a hard answer here -- there are no hard answers in poker. Unless you have the nuts you can never truly know your equity, you have to estimate it based on the information at hand, some of which I laid out before (villain's range, pot odds, etc. etc.). That's not even getting into the advanced subjects like SPR (stack-to-pot ratios) and other things.

BTW speaking of books and SPR, Small Stakes NLH (by Miller/Flynn/Mehta, not the red Small Stakes Poker book which is for Limit) and its predecessor Professional NLH (by the same authors) are great for getting into things like SPR, but right now that's going to be over your head and just confuse you. If you insist on using books and intend to play cash games, then I'd probably start with something like Phil Gordon's Little Green Book. It's dated but is good on fundamentals. Maybe Daniel Negreanu's Power Hold'em Strategy? I can't remember if that one was very advanced or not. Harrington's books are classics but are tournament focused, and you seem to be interested in cash games, so don't confuse yourself further. Otherwise it's just hard for me to recommend a good starter book because honestly by the time I started buying books I was beyond your stage, so I don't really have any other than maybe Gordon's boxed set.

Hey I see where you're coming from but honestly I don't have the patience to win $1 dollar pots at those low stakes. And thanks for the book advice man.
I am trying to read up and become the best I can be. I am still learning about the ranges and all of that. So besides the dragthebar website, are there any links you recommend either on this website or another one?
 
G

Goathair

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Total posts
249
Chips
0
Yeah, i would definitely not be playing 50nl with one buy in. It may not be very exciting , but i would drop down and work on some fundamentals first.

As far as playing on Bovada. Ace Poker Solutions put out a HH converter, it converts your hands into a format you can import into PT or HM. So you can see stats, graphs, etc. Your opponents will still show up as anonymous, or by position, but you can still review your play, and that sort of thing.

They are the same people that put out Leakbuster which is really good for plugging holes in your cash game, and they just started a free training course and have about 6-7 videos up right now. Is definitely worth a look.

http://acepokersolutions.com/Free_poker_training.php

I think one of the videos they have up right now is on hand ranges, and you may want to download their free equity calculator, and play around with it a little bit. i think it will be really helpful in seeing how your hand does vs a range of hands.

good luck.
 
M

Marginal

Junior Member
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Total posts
10,426
Awards
3
Chips
2
It doesn't say so anywhere on your profile but if you are associated with the pokerzion people please let me know before I just assume you are a shill or soemthing
 
G

Goathair

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Total posts
249
Chips
0
I have just used a lot of their stuff. Has been really helpful for me, and sounded like he needed some help on some fundamentals. reading it now though, i may have gone a little overboard in my recommendations, i was pretty tired when i wrote this.
 
M

Marginal

Junior Member
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Total posts
10,426
Awards
3
Chips
2
Yea I have no problem with you doing it just seemed like a ton of your posts included links so was just curious
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Goathair you shill!

Seriously though, thanks for all the plugs. It's appreciated.

Man, I even have someone making updates on my software now for free. I'm a lucky man. There are some cool peeps out there. I have a lot of cool and loyal people out there. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. lol
 
M

Marlbororeds1

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 4, 2013
Total posts
5
Chips
0
Yeah, i would definitely not be playing 50nl with one buy in. It may not be very exciting , but i would drop down and work on some fundamentals first.

As far as playing on Bovada. Ace Poker Solutions put out a HH converter, it converts your hands into a format you can import into PT or HM. So you can see stats, graphs, etc. Your opponents will still show up as anonymous, or by position, but you can still review your play, and that sort of thing.

They are the same people that put out Leakbuster which is really good for plugging holes in your cash game, and they just started a free training course and have about 6-7 videos up right now. Is definitely worth a look.

http://acepokersolutions.com/Free_poker_training.php

I think one of the videos they have up right now is on hand ranges, and you may want to download their free equity calculator, and play around with it a little bit. i think it will be really helpful in seeing how your hand does vs a range of hands.

good luck.

Hey thanks for the information. Do I need the Ace Poker program to download my HH into HM or PT? Or can I just simply download the HH into PT/HM?
 
G

Goathair

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2012
Total posts
249
Chips
0
Hey thanks for the information. Do I need the Ace Poker program to download my HH into HM or PT? Or can I just simply download the HH into PT/HM?

You will have to download the Bovada HH program, and install it, it has a free trial period, but i'm not really too sure how long it is. i bought it when it first came out, and it didn't have a trial at that time.
There is a tutorial video on how to do it in the program itself, but you just download your HH's from the Bovada client, convert them with the Bovada converter, and then point your tracking software to the output folder, and import them. it's all pretty fast, the longest part is just waiting for the files from Bovada.
 
Seraphim

Seraphim

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Total posts
514
Chips
0
Hey I see where you're coming from but honestly I don't have the patience to win $1 dollar pots at those low stakes.

Have fun busting you're account then bro. Can I ask you what you want out of poker? Do you want to improve learn the game and make money or just play for fun? Cause as weird as it sounds in the long run you will make tons more money playing 2nl learning the game and slowly moving up in limits. You have to crawl before you can walk man. Not to be mean but I'm just warning you its almost a certainty that you are going to bust you're account if you keep playing 50nl. But do what you want man my advice is simple move down to 2nl learn the game and move up slowly. Every winning player here will agree with me its what almost all of us did/are doing.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

starting_at_the_bottom

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2012
Total posts
2,665
Awards
1
Chips
7
Hey I see where you're coming from but honestly I don't have the patience to win $1 dollar pots at those low stakes. And thanks for the book advice man.


Countdown to busto

Tick tock
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
You can certainly learn the game at 50NL (or at 400NL, or whatever stakes you can afford), but it's going to be a much more expensive lesson. If the appeal of gambling (because that's what you're essentially doing) for bigger pots is of greater value than the fortune you're going to lose in playing stakes above your ability/bankroll, then more power to you. Every player has to decide what their goals are and where they derive their value from. Just like millionaire/billionaire whales will sit down at a 1k/2k or higher table with no clue as to what they're doing -- they're not after the money, they're after the action and don't care the cost.

But if your goal is to learn at minimal cost and then move up as your skills and BR allow, which is what most serious players that aren't independently wealthy want to do, then you're definitely doing it wrong...
 
dmorris68

dmorris68

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
May 27, 2008
Total posts
6,788
Awards
2
Chips
0
does bovada even allow hud?
They don't disallow it, they just make it such that you can't track other players due to the anonymous tables, so a HUD serves no purpose.
 
forsakenone

forsakenone

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Total posts
1,385
Chips
0
oh wow, so many things to tell you, I might have to write you a book myself. but for someone just starting like you here are a couple of quick tips.

1. don't read any books on poker, Doyle's super system won't help you in online poker, instead start watching videos right here on cardschat, we have a couple that are pretty good.

2. I know it sucks playing 1$ pots, but still, with the bankroll that you have you will go broke soon, really soon, if you really don't want to play 1$ pots drop down to like 10nl aka 0.05/0.10c

3. never limp.

4. the amount of time spent on poker should be divided like this 80% study and 20% playing poker, at least for now.
 
Top