QQ opinions wanted!

Well, this one was a weird hand. Not weird because of the cards but because that action in this hand. Let me explain...
This was a live poker hand. I was sitting at the BB in a full ring table. It was a $5/$10 table. I was dealt

UTG - Folds
UTG+1 - Folds
MP1 - Calls
MP2 - Folds
LJ - Folds
HJ - Calls
CO - Folds
BU (Villain) - Rise to $40
SB - FOLDS
ME - Call
Everyone else FOLD

FLOP



ME - CHECK
BU - CHECK

TURN



ME - CHECK
BU - CHECK

RIVER



ME - $100 (assumed he has no 10's, no pocket K's, no pocket A's and no flush).
BU - Rises to $375 (he was all in)

Now... questions!

1) What would you do with this rise?
2) Do you guess my check after the flop was a bad choice?

3bet preflop would've allowed you to lead out on the flop. As played I would fold the river, if he's not a complete fish then he obv has a T

micromachine said:

As played I would fold the river, if he's not a complete fish then he obv has a T

Click to expand...

That's the first thing coming to my head.
Then I realized that this guy checked after my check in the TURN with A, K, Q, J in the table.

I called as I knew he didn't have any T. I was pretty sure that he didn't have pocket K's or A's. The only possibility (very remote one) was a Flush he wasn't expecting.

Now put yourself in this guy's head. If I didn't bet after the flop I was hidding something or I had a low pair as I called his first rise pre-flop. At least I must have a pair.
Then, I didn't bet after the turn, so in his head I was probably on a A + low card or a pair below 10. Best I could have is a double pair.

Then the 9 that didn't change anything. Oh yes! Of course it did.
This guy was on a free ride all over the hand with his pocket 9's.
I guess he thought the best I could have was a double pair (and the obvious risk of a 10).

When I bet $100 after the River he realized I had no 10 so he rose to $375.
I was like 2 minutes trying to convince myself that no 10 was in his hands.

So I won the hand with Q set vs 9 set.

In my opinion I didn't play well, but after a couple of days I understood that there was no way to take $500 from him in just one hand if I played "correctly".

No offense, but stack depth is pretty important when analyzing a hand. That bit seems to be missing.

Hand of the month!

After a flop like that, you don't want to give anybody a free card on that board, even after flopping a set. You're playing against the preflop raiser, so pretty much anything on that board could conceivably be in his range. We're talking about 2 pair hands, just waiting for that miracle card to fill them up, possible straights and possible straight draws. I'm not saying I might not consider gettting a little fancy after flopping a set of Qs. Not on a board like this, though. I wouldn't take any chances. Right there, I would have led right out. But you have to be pleased with the result.

Good call. Nice hand. Good luck.

hutz said:

No offense, but stack depth is pretty important when analyzing a hand. That bit seems to be missing.

Click to expand...

He had like 50 BBs
I had like 60 BBs
Hope that's what you wanted to know.

Cafeman31 said:

Hand of the month!

Click to expand...

It was a very rare/nice/scary hand.
As I said, We all agreed that not betting after the flop was foolish.
But again... The fact of betting after the flop would have obviously limit my risks as well as my earnings.

Thanks for reading!

IntenseHeat said:

After a flop like that, you don't want to give anybody a free card on that board, even after flopping a set. You're playing against the preflop raiser, so pretty much anything on that board could conceivably be in his range. We're talking about 2 pair hands, just waiting for that miracle card to fill them up, possible straights and possible straight draws. I'm not saying I might not consider gettting a little fancy after flopping a set of Qs. Not on a board like this, though. I wouldn't take any chances. Right there, I would have led right out. But you have to be pleased with the result.

Good call. Nice hand. Good luck.

Click to expand...

I agree I gave him a free card (actually, I gave him 2)
But the hand would have been very different if we change positions.
I (at the BB) was always the first to talk.
When we both checked after the flop y realized I was winning the hand (no pocket As, Ks or AK for him as he would have made a value bet).
Then, after we both checked after the turn I realized that he didn't have a 10.
But then again, a new threat (flush) appeared in the river.

If I had the opportunity to act in the last place the hand would be very different. Now I guess he would have fold after the flop.

So as I said to someone before, I know I risked by checking, but I guess checking also gave me a good reading.

I believe the biggest mistake was on his side.
When I checked after the turn he should have made a bet.
If he done that, I would have fold without even think about it.

Did you say anywhere here what his hand was or did he muck??

Oh wow just saw you posted it already.. Nice set of ladies to trump his 9's, He made an excellent bet, but you made a better call.

That guy thought you were just donking along lol. Nice play

I am not sure what the standard of play is at this game, but I agree with MM:s post that mentions 3 betting pre, especially with the stack sizes, makes the rest of the hand easy to play.

His raise pre is good, attacking the limpers and he can do this with SOOOOO many hands you crush. IMO 3bet pre, and if he folds, fine, if he calls you are not doing anything but trying to get it in on this flop. If he 4 bets, well, that now depends on reads.

As played, you kinds have to call, for the reasons you mentioned. Please post results in a spoiler or someway that only those who want to know the outcome will. I obv. now, in my subconscious mind, say call since I know what he had. But still, he is doing this OTR with any Ax, Kx, Tx, 99 and probably a few bluffs as well IMO

fletchdad said:

IMO 3bet pre, and if he folds, fine, if he calls you are not doing anything but trying to get it in on this flop.

Click to expand...

This. Especially only 50 BB deep.

hutz said:

This. Especially only 50 BB deep.

Click to expand...

Let's do an excersice...

Suppose he folds the 3bet.
I win $85 (his rise to $60 + 2 calls to the BB + SB)

Suppose he calls the 3bet. (let's say to $150)
Then I would have to be agreesive after the flop. He would have fold.
I win $175 (his 150 + 2 calls to the BB + SB)

Suppose he make a 4bet or he shove.
Would you go all in with pocket Qs?
I guess I wouldn't.

What I mean is that you now have the whole story, but my odds for a set were 24:1.
In my head, if he makes a 4bet he must have AA, KK, AK. In the first to options, I'm clearly dominated. In the last (AK) his odds are 7,33:1 to beat me.

Maybe I'm a too tight player. But I prefer a chance to have a reading on his hand.

As I said, if he 4bets or shoves pre, then it is down to reads and ranges. A lot of players will 4 bet lighter than only AA-KK AK. I found no helpful info on him, or how you perceive him. Do you really think his 4 bet range is so tight?

You seem tight and if he thinks this, that you would consider folding QQ to a 4bet - with these stack sizes as well - his 4 bet range will be wide enough for you to profitably 5 bet AI/call....

Why are stacks so short?

fletchdad said:

As I said, if he 4bets or shoves pre, then it is down to reads and ranges. A lot of players will 4 bet lighter than only AA-KK AK. I found no helpful info on him, or how you perceive him. Do you really think his 4 bet range is so tight?

You seem tight and if he thinks this, that you would consider folding QQ to a 4bet - with these stack sizes as well - his 4 bet range will be wide enough for you to profitably 5 bet AI/call....

Why are stacks so short?

Click to expand...

Well, he showed himself kind of tight during the session so he wouldn't probably made a 4bet. I even don't think he would have called the 3bet. But... who knows...
The funny thing here is that not doing the right thing gave me the opportunity of making a good reading about his hand. When I called his raise I was like 95% sure I was winning the hand.

Anyway... I guess I agree with you guys that a 3bet was kind of mandatory.

About why the small stacks...

This casino has 3 kinds of tables

$4/$8 - Min buy-in $150
$5/$10 - Min buy-in $200
$10/$25 - Min buy-in $500

So minimum stack is 20BB

People rather have short stacks just in case they get busted in one hand.
The only thing they do then is to walk to the cashier and buy again.

Sometimes, you find many guys with higher stacks (not bought but won). For example, when I left table I had like 160BB.

It seems most of your reasoning is based on the results of the hand.

lol i agree. you cant check after the flop with a board like that.

MediaBLITZ said:

It seems most of your reasoning is based on the results of the hand.

Click to expand...

I don't think so. I posted all of my reasoning during the hand.

There are 3 main issues here

1) PRE FLOP - Do I have to 3bet?
2) POST FLOP - Do I have to bet?
3) POST RIVER - What the hell was this guy holding?

For number 1, I'm not sure
For number 2, definitively YES. The hand would have finished right there.
For number 3, IMO, no straight, no flush. And that was all I wanted to know.

Thread should be sticked and retitled: How To Lose Value With Queens.

doomasiggy said:

Thread should be sticked and retitled: How To Lose Value With Queens.

Click to expand...

I agree! Or maybe "minimizing value and maximizing profits with pocket Qs".

xxebaxx said:

I agree! Or maybe "minimizing value and maximizing profits with pocket Qs".

Click to expand...

You got very lucky in this hand. Doesn't mean you played it well. Flatting QQ out of position is bad for a lot of reasons, it's worse when we're 50bb effective.

doomasiggy said:

You got very lucky in this hand. Doesn't mean you played it well. Flatting QQ out of position is bad for a lot of reasons, it's worse when we're 50bb effective.

Click to expand...

The first thing I admited is that I didn't play well. Specially on the PRE FLOP being the BB.

I agree I was lucky on the river 9. However, you should give me some credit for the call.

Grunch.

The first thing that stands out here is that a guy sitting on 41 blinds opens from the btn and you flat call out of position with QQ. This is uh to put it one way non standard so I assume you must've had a specific reason to play your hand this way against this particular player? Perhaps you just never 3bet from the blinds versus steals so doing it here would give away (or possible even over rep) your hand. You said this was a live poker hand so I'd be 3betting it regardless though.

Checking the flop was obv with the intention of check/raising I assume. You may want to consider leading here on this Q low flop despite flatting pre as villain will figure to be either way ahead or way behind and thus refrain from firing a cbet, and there will be more hands in his value range here that call or raise a flop donk than he'll bet himself if checked to. If he has demonstrated a tendency cbet a lot (i.e. always or when he misses by a mile) then check/raising as opposed to donking flop is fine.

The worst result you could have envisioned occurs when the player checked behind and the peels, for reasons which should already be clear. I agree with checking here a second time, as painful as it is that you were dealt QQ with 40 blinds effective (or less if you don't cover), flopped a set (on an A high board at that), and it now looks like you can't even get stacks in because there's been literally no betting yet post.

The river is a bit interesting once the turn checks through, as is your bet sizing. It's not a spot I'd ever find myself in because I wouldn't have played the hand like this, but I don't mind a river bet. I suppose I could state the obvious and say villain's own game is key here and whether or not he's prone to bluffing in this spot, but after checking twice in position this hand already as the preflop opener, the odds of him betting the river with a hand you can beat don't seem great. Calling a jam is, again, villain dependent, and you could make a good case for folding your set (as well as using more typical sizing otr). It's extremely unlikely for him to shove worse here for value, but on the other hand he could certainly be spazzing/bluffing quite a bit given the board and the unusual action thus far and that alone may merit a call.

Overall this hand was somewhat unusual, and it all stems from the unusual play preflop by flatting QQ this shallow.

Thread of the month for sure, OP is a tool, but is taking it all in his stride and has to be respected for that

Got lucky on this one! You have like 50bb and someone raises with a ton of dead money in pot from limpers...i think this is a pretty standard 3bet, and with that being said, i don't think i would ever fold to a 4bet with QQ and such a small stack.