Protecting your hand? Do we ever really?

ConDeck

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I keep reading people talking about betting to "protect" marginal or weak holdings, particular on the flop or scary turns, and thought I'd open up a bit of discussion around this subject.

Do we ever really bet to "protect" our hand? I see it given out as advice regularly... "Should have bet to protect our hand" etc, but personally however, I am never betting to protect a hand, simply to extract value from weaker hands that may call such as draws and under pairs over cards etc, at least until I have reason to believe I am behind.

I bet for two reasons and that is to extract value from worse hands and to fold out better hands. Surely these are really the only two reasons for betting? Protection doesn't really come into it right? I mean I understand that you are protecting your hand by not checking back in these spots to let your opponent take a free card and actualise/improve his equity in the pot, but that is not the reason for betting, the bet is for value.

Obviously I am referring only to flop and turn bets here. A good example of times I commonly hear this is when hero hold MP, TP, 2P on a 3 to a straight board or 2 to a flush, betting to "protect" against a flush draw or straight draw (2 way) +overs. What are you protecting? Villain with such equity are drawing at least on the flop anyway (I am talking heads up pots predominantly, differs slightly multi way) so your bet is purely for value while your ahead, with a reassessment on later streets.

Just thought it was an interesting discussion I have had a few times now with various people and thought it could spark a good discussion here, what are other peoples thoughts?
 
Raggamuffin

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It depends. If its a loose caller who will just flat to draw the hand (flush/straight) then sometimes I will potbet outright so he's not getting the odds and will hopefully give it up. I wouldn't do this on a regular basis though, depends on the opponent and the strength of my own hand.
 
ConDeck

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i understand what you are saying here, bet sizing is a factor here especially on the turn when opponents equity diminishes massively. That being said this is still for value right? We essentially want to "charge" these players for drawing I agree with betting larger on wetter boards so that we narrow our opponents calling range, but this is still a value bet no?

Are we really folding out better than our hand here?

I am talking about examples when we have a made hand, not when we are bluffing/semi bluffing ourselves. Our goal here is not to fold out better hands but to get value from worse while the pot odds/equity is in our favour?
 
Raggamuffin

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Yes I suppose technically its a value bet because you have the best hand at the time but I also see it as betting to protect my already made hand, trying to prevent him from seeing the next card.
Like if he hits on the river your bet just added value to his pot instead of yours, so I can see why some people wouldnt want to call it a value bet.
I guess it depends what perspective your looking at it from, if your looking at it through his odds of hitting I guess you'd consider it a value bet, as you still believe you'll hold the best hand at showdown. But if your thinking the opposite, that he probably will hit, then you would see it as betting to protect your hand & trying to prevent him from making a better hand.
Sorry my skills arent on par with yours yet regarding Ev+- etc so thats about as in-depth as I go :D
 
BigCountryGB

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I look at it the same way Raggamuffin explained. When I think about a protection bet I'm betting for value with what I think is the top hand at the time, but could easily become second best. In this case, I'd would happily win the hand right now if they fold.
 
WVHillbilly

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I keep reading people talking about betting to "protect" marginal or weak holdings, particular on the flop or scary turns, and thought I'd open up a bit of discussion around this subject.

Do we ever really bet to "protect" our hand? I see it given out as advice regularly... "Should have bet to protect our hand" etc, but personally however, I am never betting to protect a hand, simply to extract value from weaker hands that may call such as draws and under pairs over cards etc, at least until I have reason to believe I am behind.

I bet for two reasons and that is to extract value from worse hands and to fold out better hands. Surely these are really the only two reasons for betting? Protection doesn't really come into it right? I mean I understand that you are protecting your hand by not checking back in these spots to let your opponent take a free card and actualise/improve his equity in the pot, but that is not the reason for betting, the bet is for value.

Obviously I am referring only to flop and turn bets here. A good example of times I commonly hear this is when hero hold MP, TP, 2P on a 3 to a straight board or 2 to a flush, betting to "protect" against a flush draw or straight draw (2 way) +overs. What are you protecting? Villain with such equity are drawing at least on the flop anyway (I am talking heads up pots predominantly, differs slightly multi way) so your bet is purely for value while your ahead, with a reassessment on later streets.

Just thought it was an interesting discussion I have had a few times now with various people and thought it could spark a good discussion here, what are other peoples thoughts?
You're right. Two reasons to bet: Value or bluff. We don't bet for information or protection.
 
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Yeah, the inherent idea of a "protection bet" is that you are inherently betting to fold out a worse hand. And that's not really a good way to maximize value. Second to that, "protection bets" imply that you are scared of certain cards which can give a thoughtful player extra bluff opportunities.

I do think there are times when we can bet that aren't strictly for value or to fold better hands. I think if we are exactly divided in a spot a carefully sized bet can give us valuable information, give us initiative, and allow us to rep a wider range (be it bluffs or value hands) on further actions. I think we can also bet in order to induce actions from other players as well - which is a value bet but the main goal is to get the player to make a mistake as the means of getting value.
 
ConDeck

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I think if we are exactly divided in a spot a carefully sized bet can give us valuable information, give us initiative, and allow us to rep a wider range (be it bluffs or value hands) on further actions.

Yeah I agree with you and like how you put it. With regards to the above however, I think when we do this we are still preferring a fold at that time (otherwise it is a value bet), although like you say with the initiative and range rep we get from doing this it does allow us to bluff later streets or bet for value when we improve... Example off the top of my head is "stabbing" at a pot when it checks around on the flop with a speculative hand... This gives us the intitiative and allows us to bluff/value bet on the river, however at the time we prefer a fold, otherwise we are just simply value betting. This would often be called betting for information, but thats not why we are betting... we dont want information, we want to take the pot down.
 
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i do the folding makes more sense if you dont know you have the advantage, that or raise if you got what you think you need, protecting a hand is pretty much asking for a bad beat unless you can afford to make the bet.. thats just my humble opinion
 
ConDeck

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It always bugs me when I hear people talking about “protecting their hand”. And when players in my home game get outdrawn on the turn or river I often hear them say “I should have shoved on the flop to push out the draws” (many times with hands like top pair, good kicker)…wrong. They played the hand fine, but they got outdrawn, that’s poker. Shoving a deep stack with one pair accomplishes nothing except turning your hand into a bluff. Now all the draws and worse hands fold for sure (and you win nothing more), but you lose your whole stack to someone with 2-pair or a set.

I agree with you, a lot of the value in poker comes from drawing hands and as you said, shoving here you get called by hands that you are way behind or still have huge equity against you that they wouldn't have on the turn, rarely are you getting called light, although I have seen some horrendous calls lol.

Also if someone wants to chase their draw for 2 streets against me let them as long as they pay... In the long term I am making money here as long as I only pay off rarely when they make it (I'm never going to get a way from it all of the time).
 
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I think "bet to protect our hand" is just a subset of betting for value. In the case where you probably have the best hand, but there's almost no chance a worse hand will call you...you still fire a bet to get people to fold the equity they have or, in rare circumstances, make a really terrible call.

An example would be something like: You have AKo, raise pre and are HU on a flop of 842 rainbow. Very few hands are going to continue with you, but basically any hand can turn a pair and have you beat...so you still fire the c-bet so hands like 9T-QJs, 67s, etc. have to pay to try and hit their 6 outs, even though they are much more likely to just fold.
 
PokerGrinder

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It depends on the player or players in the pot. Obviously, they'll be drawing if they call a bet from you on the flop. So, just observe the players and know the texture of the board.
 
lcid86

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Interesting thread. I will 'protect' with marginal hands against aggressive players. It depends a lot on what I know about my opponent.
 
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greysilverfang

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I dont know, after hearing most of this, shouldn't protecting a hand only consist of top tier pairs... like kk aa jj, otherwise isn't it just bluffing? thats just regards to most of the discussion here on this thread.
 
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sharon mckee

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you should bet 3x the BB in order to put off limper with nothing.
 
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greysilverfang

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still say Check or Fold, if you dont have the deal maker, protecting AK isnt worth it... well on online poker.. I mean Depends, I honestly wouldnt be trying to protect anything lower than a QQ... anything lower is basicly a bluff.after flop but the ratio is online is a lot different than your real life house odds. i would honestly say dont protect, just play your hand the way its meant to be played in regards to the flop, preflop protection is only worth it with a QQ KK AA truth be told but thats just my opinion on the truth.. so its more of a good idea in my own way of thinking
 
ConDeck

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still say Check or Fold, if you dont have the deal maker, protecting AK isnt worth it... well on online poker.. I mean Depends, I honestly wouldnt be trying to protect anything lower than a QQ... anything lower is basicly a bluff.after flop but the ratio is online is a lot different than your real life house odds. i would honestly say dont protect, just play your hand the way its meant to be played in regards to the flop, preflop protection is only worth it with a QQ KK AA truth be told but thats just my opinion on the truth.. so its more of a good idea in my own way of thinking

You do not necessarily need to have the "homebreaker" as you put it... You just need to understand why you are betting. You are betting either to blow your opponent of a stronger hand or get called by a worse hand. That is it.

What it boils down to is if you think that when you bet better never folds, and worse can never call, then why are you betting? Every bet should be a decision, not just force of habit.

What comes into play here is the villian's playing style, will he call 2/3 streets with 2nd pair? If so can you thin value bet top pair bad kicker on the river (dry board)? As with all poker it is player dependent. T

The first question you should be asking is why am i betting? Betting on a KJ10 2 of a suit board with pocket 77s into 2 tight opponents out of position is not "protecting your hand", its pissing money up the wall and asking to be raised (real life example I heard "well I was protecting my hand", then complained that his pairs never hold :S).

Even with regards to a flop cbet the process is the same, whether we miss or hit we are not simply c betting. We are asking ourselves why are we continuing, is it a) because I believe I have/still have the best hand therefore I can get value from worse or is it b) because I have missed this board but there is a good chance my opponent has to, my table image is right, I believe the opponent doesnt float too wide etc etc so by betting I can fold out hands that may be ahead equity wise.

Note: The aim is not to win every hand, it is to win the maximum when we do and lose the minimum when we don't. It is fine to check fold/check call a flop that smashes our opponents range, helps us none and can put us in tricky spots on later streets.
 
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Philip Cruz

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Is very important protect your hand 'cause sometimes you have situation that can lost very chips and that is no necessary
 
ConDeck

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Is very important protect your hand 'cause sometimes you have situation that can lost very chips and that is no necessary

Please elaborate how you are protecting your hand? Do you mean not letting a free card come off? as in you are not checking back? This is a value bet, hands with decent equity are going to call anyway and at the time of betting you are presuming you have the best hand until you have reason to believe otherwise.
 
xastaria

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I don't know if you can use as a rule value or protection because every situation is different, if you playing against someone who knows the game(pot,odds and his hand strength) value and protection can work...but if you playing against calling station who opens all his hands and you can not put him in a range of hands what you can do???And so many more examples you can think....In my opinion the most important is to understand your opponents!!!
 
ConDeck

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I don't know if you can use as a rule value or protection because every situation is different, if you playing against someone who knows the game(pot,odds and his hand strength) value and protection can work...but if you playing against calling station who opens all his hands and you can not put him in a range of hands what you can do???And so many more examples you can think....In my opinion the most important is to understand your opponents!!!

In the situation above you can still range your opponent as you progress street by street. This is also when position comes into play allowing for pot control. If villain is calling/opening wide then you are value betting when you are ahead of his perceived range. As you progress through the streets you can narrow this perceived range and bet check accordingly. YES SOMETIMES YOU WILL LOSE when he has some goofy back door straight against your set etc but through pot control and extracting max value you will win against these players in the long run, in fact this is where most of your profit will come from.

I will also call down pretty wide in these spots as you can allow like a 15% WTF factor when they will just be making plays that have no explanation. You should always be looking to play pots with these people IP when your option to pot control and extract maximum value is greatest.

So to answer you question what can you do? Open much tighter when OOP position against these opp and value bet hard/aggressive but dont get married to your hand. When this passive fish raises your turn or river bet... he usually just has it so a fold is fine when not close to the nuts. When IP the opposite is true open/Call/3B wide against these opp IP and capitalise on their mistakes post-flop where your skill edge will give you the advantage. These players are your ATM if you adjust your game accordingly.

Of course understanding your opponent is key, and opponents will differ but the questions you ask yourself in the process are always more or less the same as there is a finite number of options available to you. To bet or not is one of these key questions and understanding why you should or should not bet is of great importance no matter the opp. Wen faced with the decision to bet the first question should always be "Am i betting for value or as a bluff", not a statement "ooo I should bet here to protect my hand" because what you should be looking at is WHY?

Why should you bet here to protect your hand? Is it probably the best hand but vulnerable? Yes, eg. 77 on 348r board against a tight BB call, then bet large to fold out the most of the defending range of your tight opp and get VALUE from those that choose to float or draw, not protect. No, eg. 77 on AQ10r against the same tight BB call, firing here is never for value and is turning your hand into a BLUFF.

No matter the situation, no matter the opponent, this process can be applied. The individual differences are bet sizing, how thinly we can value bet, how often and how big we can/should bluff etc... But why are we betting will always come down to value or bluff... not protection.

But I guess this is just my opinion....
 
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bnasp2

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Well, betting with some reasonable combination (TP, MP, 2P) agains draw is not protection bet. Its normal bet for value.
You must bet enough, so it would be mistake by your opponent to make a call.
You are at same time trying to make him call (to force to him make a mistake). By not betting too much, by pretending you are bluffing, or making him think he will get 2 cards for his money, even he will get just one on turn, before another bet. Also by making him think he has great implied odds and then not paying him extra if the draw completes.

Anyway for me, protection bet is bad name for value bet when you actually don't know how to bet for value correctly.
 
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