Pre-flop raise sizes. - Why?

thepokerkid123 said:

The standard raise sizes seem to be mostly 3bb+1 per limper and 4bb+1 per limper.

Also at least in cash games it is benefical to raise more/less based on position. Basically adding an extra 1bb in EP and using your standard raise in LP will show better results. Not sure about tournaments.


Anyway, recently I've been plugging a lot of leaks that have been in my game for a long time and one major leak was that my bet sizing sucked. The biggest adjustment was pre-flop going from 3bb to 4bb which saw an immediate increase in my winrate. I only made that adjustment as a trial and error thing, the fact is I don't know why one size should be more optimal than the other.

One additional thing to keep in mind is the opponents you're playing. If you are playing opponents who will call a larger opening hand w trash hands, you want to make your opens larger. As a generality, I see more players at 50nl and less who will make these calls, and fewer at 100nl where you're playing more regs than at lower limits - I use 4x as a standard at 50nl and down, and 3.5x (psb) as a standard at 100nl.

My thoughts:
Smaller raise sizes favour post-flop play, keeping the SPR high. Big raises create a bigger edge on earlier streets, but on later streets can result in a closer to neutral EV situation - i.e. both players are getting correct odds to either stack off or chase their draws.

Key point. Using your opening betsizing pf to create good postflop SPR situations is a really nice skill to acquire (one that I don't exploit enough). When you're playing a drawing hand, you definitely want a higher SPR to continue postflop. The converse is that if you have a hand that isn't a drawing hand (big pp's), you want a lower SPR so larger betsizing makes sense there.

Smaller raises are best used with a wide range. Your raise size shouldn't be based on the strength of your hand, but basing it on the strength of your range is quite good (in my opinion). The smaller your pre-flop raise the smaller the 'mistake' you're making by playing a weaker range. Similarly if you're playing very tight then big raises maximise your edge in having a stronger range (and make it difficult for people to proffitably chase implied odds).

Another key point. The wider your range, the less you want to bloat the pot pf, which limits your ability to make plays postflop. As villains get more agg pf, you also don't want to be committed w every hand you want to open when you start getting 3bet alot. My range is relatively narrow in EP and relatively wide in LP, so I use larger betsizes in EP and smaller in LP (independent of the hand I hold - I make the same smaller opening w AA that I do w 85s on the btn).

Smaller raises favour whoever is in position because the SPR is high. Bigger raises should also favour whoever is in position because bigger pots are being played in position. Both of these statements can't be true, either a bigger raise or a smaller raise is more beneficial but I don't know which.

imo, position is position and is an advantage whether SPR is high or low (whether the pot is larger or smaller). Low SPR favors whoever's not drawing, so it cancels out a bit of the advantage of position (in other words, if stacks aren't deep enough to make a play in position, the overall advantage position provides decreases).

As an example, you end up playing a pot where you flop a flush draw in position against an utg open. Villain's SPR is 4 or less on the flop, and he bets the flop. Raising/shoving here has no fold equity against any overpair/top pair hand. If Villain's SPR is over 13, raising has more FE, even against an overpair. Semi-bluffing in position loses it's effectiveness if you know Villain's pot committed.

Of course, position is still an advantage from the standpoint that you get to see what he does first, it's just not as big an advantage.


So anyway, any thoughts on how to choose pre-flop raise sizes?

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slycbnew said:

One other thought - I rarely vary my betsizing based on table conditions, and this is a leak imo. In other words, when I'm trying to isolate a fish who I think will call w a very wide range, I ought to be opening/raising bigger than I do against a reg, independent of my betsizing standards.

Yet another thing for me to work on, sigh...

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Stu_Ungar said:

Fish who call with a wide range PF call with a wide range post flop. Being as you will miss many flops the smaller size is better (4-5BB)

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slycbnew said:

Agreed, good points.

Recently ran across an idea (from a vid) regarding villains who call too widely pf and peel postflop a lot - if you see someone who calls too wide pf and calls the flop a lot, you can open a standard amount pf, bet larger on the flop (say a little larger than 3/4psb), and smaller on the turn (say a little over 1/2psb) depending on how the board plays out - this will fold out a lot of second pair and drawing hands, even some weak top pair hands - the extra money we make by making the flop betsize larger is good, and the smaller turn betsize decreases our loss when we have to fold. If we think that's the majority of his range based on board texture and the fact that he calls too wide, we can do this with a pretty wide range.

Still playing with this, but so far I think it's working out well at 50nl and 100nl (I two barrel a lot) - I don't know if this would work at, say, 10nl where everyone calls down through the river w any piece of the board. Really have to be careful w board textures when trying to do this too - really helps if the turn is a scare card. But it's given me an additional tool beyond looking at fold to flop cbet to make my decisions pf.

I desparately need to re-configure my HUD, I haven't customized it at all since I switched to HEM, so I don't have fold to turn cbet setup yet...

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dwolfg said:

Personally, I make the same size bet regardless of position, or hand, if I am to play. I can see the argument for changing the bet size based on position though. I agree with Phil Gordon's reasoning for betting smaller in early position and larger in late position. As stated before, the person in position will always have an advantage based on having more information than his/her opponent. Now I would rather play a larger pot when I have that advantage rather than when my opponent has that advantage and I am at the disadvantage.

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F Paulsson said:

But there are two sides to that coin: Out of position, you're better off making the pot bigger preflop because that leaves less room for your in-position-opponent to maneuver postflop. To see this, consider open-shoving preflop: You've completely negated your positional disadvantage. It's obviously, eh, "sub-optimal" for other reasons but the basic principle still applies with smaller raise sizes as well.

When I'm playing only a few tables, I'll open large under the gun and decrease my raise size as I get closer to the button. In practise, with 6+ tables, I just 3x it. I still minraise the button sometimes depending on who's in the blind (frequent 3-bettors specifically) but all other positions I'm virtually always 3xing it.

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dwolfg said:

Unless you are talking about short-stacked play and being pot-committed with standard c-bet or a table of nits, I don't see how that leaves less room for postflop positional play. You'll have to explain that to me, if you could.

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thepokerkid123 said:

Dwolfg, I think Chris Ferguson is another advocate of that method. Betting smaller in early position (he thinks your raises get more respect in EP and so don't need to be as big) and bigger in late position. I really don't think there are many successful cash game players who agree with them about it though, it's really backwards logic. In EP your range is stronger, you need a lower SPR and you are more inclined to have the hand end pre-flop or on the flop, you really don't want to be having to make many big bets on rivers (because your range is mostly one pair hands).
I understand that you want most of the money you wager to be bet from position, so having bigger pots in position is definately a good thing but most of the advantages to position come from a high SPR.

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