Pot or shove?

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billatx

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At these situations ,do you prefer a pot sized bet or a shove?
 
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billatx

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pokerstars Zoom Hand #79656361355: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2012/04/29 18:57:37 ET
Table 'Tamariwa' 6-max
Seat 1: Apollo Fenix ($7.51 in chips)
Seat 2: sintxosnas ($23.43 in chips)
Seat 3: Billa_tx ($11.54 in chips)
Seat 4: NOSVEMOSS ($6.69 in chips)
Seat 5: LetzRunHot ($29.56 in chips)
Seat 6: Snopak ($11.14 in chips)
sintxosnas: posts small blind $0.05
Billa_tx: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Billa_tx [3h 3d]
NOSVEMOSS: folds
LetzRunHot: folds
Snopak: raises $0.20 to $0.30
Apollo Fenix: folds
sintxosnas: folds
Billa_tx: calls $0.20
*** FLOP *** [3s 2s Qc]
Billa_tx: bets $0.50
Snopak: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [3s 2s Qc] [6d]
Billa_tx: bets $1.20
Snopak: calls $1.20
*** RIVER *** [3s 2s Qc 6d] [8h]
Billa_tx: bets $3.20
Snopak: calls $3.20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Billa_tx: shows [3h 3d] (three of a kind, Threes)
Snopak: mucks hand
Billa_tx collected $9.98 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.45 | Rake $0.47
Board [3s 2s Qc 6d 8h]
Seat 1: Apollo Fenix folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: sintxosnas (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Billa_tx (big blind) showed [3h 3d] and won ($9.98) with three of a kind, Threes
Seat 4: NOSVEMOSS folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: LetzRunHot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Snopak mucked [Ac Qd]
 
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baudib1

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Fold pre. I like shoving river as played.
 
TheGenera1

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I'm not suggesting you are wrong, but why is it a fold pre? I think he has the correct odds to set mine here.
 
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baudib1

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What do you mean fold pre???

Click the fold button and move on to the next hand.

33 plays terribly OOP and HU vs. a LP raiser, very unlikely you can play this profitably.
 
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Slow Roll Poker

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A shove on the river would have paid more, but it also risked pushing your opponent out. Overall, you played this hand very well. He probably had KQ or AQ calling those bets. But then again, he might have raised once or twice with that strong of a hand.
 
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Aldito

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with 111bb effective and a 3x raise I don't think this is ever a fold pre at 6max.

I don't like donk betting 3 streets though.
 
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baudib1

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with 111bb effective and a 3x raise I don't think this is ever a fold pre at 6max.

you're going to c/f the flop the vast majority of the time and not get paid off when you hit very often = -EV call preflop.

This hand is a best-case scenario where we hit vs. TPTK AND the flush draw misses and we still don't get stacks.

Calling here preflop can be part of a general preflop strategy to flat with hands that play well postflop, like suited broadways, and to be able to barrel a polarized range of big draws, sets and bluffs vs. regs. But in a vacuum and especially in Zoom, we are not going to make money with a strategy of "ZOMG POCKET PAIR, MUST CALL."
 
flatcaller

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Playing low limit cash i def flat a lot more pre. You made a bet on all streets and got paid off maybe your rive bet can be a bit more but over all i think you played it good. i understand what baudibl (good post) is saying it makes sense but implied odds are so much greater at lower limit game, you hit a big hand you can really get paid off. Most ppl are prob not folding QT or better in .5/.10
this will vary to playing style as well, i will at time get involved with a lot of pots and play lots of garbage cause i feel i can out play ppl post flop. so for me to flat with 33 pre it can be done but i also am not afraid to play it strong if i dont spike a set (obv pending on situation and scenario etc.)
 
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Aldito

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you're going to c/f the flop the vast majority of the time and not get paid off when you hit very often = -EV call preflop.

This hand is a best-case scenario where we hit vs. TPTK AND the flush draw misses and we still don't get stacks.

Calling here preflop can be part of a general preflop strategy to flat with hands that play well postflop, like suited broadways, and to be able to barrel a polarized range of big draws, sets and bluffs vs. regs. But in a vacuum and especially in Zoom, we are not going to make money with a strategy of "ZOMG POCKET PAIR, MUST CALL."

But micro zoom is absolutely filled with nits who will never lay down an overpair if we hit.
 
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Calling was fine pre flop, you had excellent implied odds. I do not think a shove is getting called unless you get a raise or overbet in on the flop or turn.
 
WVHillbilly

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Calling was fine pre flop, you had excellent implied odds. I do not think a shove is getting called unless you get a raise or overbet in on the flop or turn.

Your post is 2 sentence that essentially mean the exact opposite of each other.

If we can't get stacks in when we both hit, we don't really have excellent implied odds.
 
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mcbluffin311

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Your post is 2 sentence that essentially mean the exact opposite of each other.

If we can't get stacks in when we both hit, we don't really have excellent implied odds.
You don't have to stack off to get good implied odds. He got paid off for 4.90 after the flop on a 0.20 call pre. That's 24.5:1 on an 8.5:1 draw.
 
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JamesDaBear

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LOL at folding pre. If you can't call .20c against a 3x lp raise from the bb with a pocket pair 100+ bbs deep, you should move down in stakes or quit or something...
 
WVHillbilly

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You don't have to stack off to get good implied odds. He got paid off for 4.90 after the flop on a 0.20 call pre. That's 24.5:1 on an 8.5:1 draw.
He didn't say good implied odds. He said excellent. Excellent would have won 100bb.
 
WVHillbilly

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LOL at folding pre. If you can't call .20c against a 3x lp raise from the bb with a pocket pair 100+ bbs deep, you should move down in stakes or quit or something...
Why? Here is what usually happens, we miss, he cbets, and we fold. Sometimes we hit, we bet, and he folds because his range isn't that strong being in LP and all. Rarely, we hit, he hits, and we win a decent sized pot (this hand for example).

Actually I think flatting here is MUCH better at micro stakes than it is higher. At least at microstakes you'll have many more people willing to stack with a single pair postflop.
 
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AllInDom

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Danger of a suck out by flush draw. A shove after the flop would raise the cost of chasing. Your play worked out great, it's always easy to second guess.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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LOL at folding pre. If you can't call .20c against a 3x lp raise from the bb with a pocket pair 100+ bbs deep, you should move down in stakes or quit or something...

did he just tell WV to move down?

LOL, you're a funny one.. that made my day.

wide range = no implied odds

+ we miss a lot and check fold or have no clue what to do, we can't float/pot control/do much since we're OOP.. its a fold pre.

people telling other people that they're bad and then spew bullshit theory..
 
WVHillbilly

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did he just tell WV to move down?

LOL, you're a funny one.. that made my day.

wide range = no implied odds

+ we miss a lot and check fold or have no clue what to do, we can't float/pot control/do much since we're OOP.. its a fold pre.

people telling other people that they're bad and then spew bullshit theory..

Actually I don't mind flatting preflop at say 50nl and below. Players are bad enough that while it WON'T be super profitable, we should make a small profit (assuming we don't do stupid things very often when we miss). Micro stakes player also aren't as positionally aware in general so his range even from the CO is probably tighter than it would be up a few levels.

My only issue was with the assertion that you should move down if you can't profitably set mine in situations like this. In fact I'd say just the opposite, you should move down if you want to profitably set mine against a LP opener because at higher stakes it will be a losing play.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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I'm gonna assume you're right, but honestly I HATE flatting here.

mainly for the reasons you stated, I can't see us turning this into a +ev move imo.

and OP never stated any reads, whether he was a fish/reg/nit or whatever, if it was a nit then it makes more sense but I still don't like it.

I have the same issue.

and 16k > 480 posts.
 
JamesDaBear

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did he just tell WV to move down?

LOL, you're a funny one.. that made my day.

wide range = no implied odds

+ we miss a lot and check fold or have no clue what to do, we can't float/pot control/do much since we're OOP.. its a fold pre.

people telling other people that they're bad and then spew bullshit theory..

Last time I checked, WV wasn't advocating folding, certainly at no point before I posted, and WV isn't playing .05-.10, and I specifically said .20c... not $20... not 2 bbs. Try reading before laughing. It's helps with the comprehension of what someone's saying.
 
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Aldito

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Last time I checked, WV wasn't advocating folding, certainly at no point before I posted, and WV isn't playing .05-.10, and I specifically said .20c... not $20... not 2 bbs. Try reading before laughing. It's helps with the comprehension of what someone's saying.

This. At $10nl this is a call all day long.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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Why? Here is what usually happens, we miss, he cbets, and we fold. Sometimes we hit, we bet, and he folds because his range isn't that strong being in LP and all. Rarely, we hit, he hits, and we win a decent sized pot (this hand for example).

Actually I think flatting here is MUCH better at micro stakes than it is higher. At least at microstakes you'll have many more people willing to stack with a single pair postflop.

seems like he wants to call. (sarcasm)

think its you that's got it mixed up, so I'll carry on laughing.

also money differences don't matter, 2bb is 2bb whatever the limit.
 
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Aldito

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seems like he wants to call. (sarcasm)

think its you that's got it mixed up, so I'll carry on laughing.

also money differences don't matter, 2bb is 2bb whatever the limit.

That's just not true at all. Whereas 5x AA UTG is fine at $2nl, obviously it's going to be exploitable at $200nl.
 
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