pot odds

So, I was reading Daniel Negreanu's book, Hold'em Wisdom for All Players.

He has a chapter on pot odds. He says that when calculating the odds for your hand, you only use the cards in your hand 2 plus the cards on the board....so that if you've seen the turn, you have 47 cards left..

I always understood this calculation as the number of cards left in the deck..in other words, if I need an have one ace and expect that I need an ace to win, I'd have 3 outs....3 out of 30, but if I go by DNs explanation...it's 3 out of 46.

Which is correct?

its known cards you cant account for cards that you dont know

example your 2 hole cards and 3 flop cards leaves 47 cards so say you have flush draw which you only need one card to make it is 9/47=19.86 to make it on the turn, and 9/46 to make it on the river, but the easiest way is take your outs and multiply by 4 on the flop thats simple math by rounding it up. for example 9 x 4 36% not exact but close enough

gl

I'm going to reread what he wrote....I agree with you Rounder, and it's what I thought, I just don't know why he wrote it the way that he wrote it.

There are 52 cards in the deck, and since you already know what your two cards are, as well as the four remaining community cards on board, that leaves 46 unseen, unknown cards.

This is a direct quote from the book, mods if this is outside the rules feel free to remove the post. I'm just wondering if I've been calculating wrong all this time...LOL

-52 cards in a deck
-you receive 2 and see 3 on the flop. 52-5 = 47
-If you're drawing to an Ace (3 outs) your odds are 3/47. Which is means 3 cards in a deck of 47 remaining will help you. Or 44 cards in a deck of 47 remaining do not help you.
-The same is for the turn, except it'll be 3/46 cards.

Rounder_D said:

the easiest way is take your outs and multiply by 4 on the flop thats simple math by rounding it up. for example 9 x 4 36% not exact but close enough

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This is only if you're going to see 2 cards (turn and river) without any more betting in between-like if there is an all in on the flop. However, if there is a chance of more betting on the turn, you do not figure for 2 cards to come, but 1 card. So, if you have 9 outs, 9x2= ~18% chance of hitting on the turn. Then you figure again for the river if you dont hit 9x2 = ~18% chance.

Also, this is dealing with hand odds, not pot odds.

This is honestly the first time I've heard it explained this way...I see the logic, but always thought you calculated the odds with what was left in the deck...not what was left that you haven't seen.

philthy said:

Also, this is dealing with hand odds, not pot odds.

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LOL, I've looked at this twice and it didn't register...but, yeah if you don't know what the cards are they are the "deck". Wonka was thinking 9plyr x 2 + 4 on board didn't count anymore \/\/ just what was in dealer's hand.

Wonka22 said:

This is honestly the first time I've heard it explained this way...I see the logic, but always thought you calculated the odds with what was left in the deck...not what was left that you haven't seen.

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You are. Looking back at my example. If you're drawing to 3 outs on the turn and there are 47 unseen cards...then there are 3 cards that will help you out of 47 unknown remaining. 3/47 = .06 or 6% chance of hitting. The shortcut to multiply your outs by 2 for each each street. 3x2=6 or 6% chance of hitting.

D'wilius said:

LOL, I've looked at this twice and it didn't register...but, yeah if you don't know what the cards are they are the "deck".

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Hand odds and pot odds are two different things.

As a general rule of thumb if facing a bet: if you're pot odds are better than your hand odds, its a profitable call. If not, its profitable to fold.

So, lets say you have a 4:1 chance to hit your flush and you're getting 5:1 on your money, then you should call. But if you're only getting 3:1 on your money, then you should fold.

ok fair enough, I'm going to have to rethink things a little bit then.

See, you do learn by continuing to read, even though most of the stuff you read is regurgitated stuff...LOL

philthy said:

Hand odds and pot odds are two different things.

As a general rule of thumb if facing a bet: if you're pot odds are better than your hand odds, its a profitable call. If not, its profitable to fold.

So, lets say you have a 4:1 chance to hit your flush and you're getting 5:1 on your money, then you should call. But if you're only getting 3:1 on your money, then you should fold.

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I understand this....but, they both go hand in hand, when figuring pot odds....you're doing so to see if you should call compared to your hand odds.

I"m trying to find the book that I got where I learned to calculate odds at...and maybe I just listened to Norm Chad or something....LOL there is my error....man Norm Chad bugs me.(am i the only one?)

Wonka22 said:

I understand this....but, they both go hand in hand, when figuring pot odds....you're doing so to see if you should call compared to your hand odds.

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Oh, they definitely go hand-in-hand. The pot odds/hand odds is just a quick short cut in figuring out if a call is profitable or not. I have a general idea of the odds of general hands hitting-flush, straight, gutshot, etc but one thing I like to do is I keep a window open of hand odds so I can quickly go back to it and get exact odds/% chances of my outs hitting, then I just figure out the pot odds.

Sorry that I'm dragging this out..but I just looked at odds for dummies here on THIS site....I'm really not sure where I got my info, but, obviously I'm totally wrong....Thanks guys for the help...

No problem. Glad I could help.

Here I am...listening to a self proclaimed donk who fails at NLHE..../sigh

Wonka22 said:

Here I am...listening to a self proclaimed donk who fails at NLHE..../sigh

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LOL. I'll ask a mod to delete my post, then.

haha, you know I'm just giving you hell....