Postflop decisions need help

I now have a little over 15k hands at 2nl and am beating it for 4bb/ 100 which may seem low but the rake is really steep.I think my preflop game is pretty solid. I have a default opening hand chart down cold and am able to modify it based on table conditions (almost always by loosening up).

Where l am really not getting the most value is postflop. I get way too many folds on the flop, or bet too often on the turn to have to give up on the river or get easy calls on the river when I make a standard river bet which suggest I could sometimes get more.

As far as I have been able to figure out there are three critical components of postflop play;

1. putting your opponent on a range of hands and narrowing that down on each street based on his actions and also predicting the action that opponent will take based on that assumed range and the board.
2. figuring out your equity against that range.
3. making the best decision to maiximize EV.

What I am looking for is any or all of the following:

• links to previous threads that cover this in detail.
• books that really focus on these topics in detail specifically for online microstakes FR NLHE.
• thoughts on how skewed hand distributions might affect EV for certain decisions, i.e. if an opponent only raises with A, always limps with PP's. Flats with Big pairs, etc.

I do have pokerstove so I know how to figure out equity for given hole cards vs a range. I really need the help about hand ranges and good decisions as often I find that I make exactly the wrong decision based upon a correct assumption.

Thanks

i still think your problem is preflop. postflop at this level is really easy, bet when you have it, at least top pair top kicker, or fold when you miss, don't c-bet most opponents because most of them are loose-passive players, aka calling stations, so odds are you are not going to get much value from c-betting AK when you miss.

"books that really focus on these topics in detail specifically for online microstakes FR NLHE"

you really think books are going to help you here? books are for way higher levels, and odds are what they tell you won't work at this level, once again, because you are dealing with calling stations while books talk about plays vs real poker players, there are not real poker players, they don't know odds or ev and any fancy stuff.

i really think you are putting too much thought in 2nl, like "putting your opponent on a range of hands and narrowing that down on each street based on his actions and also predicting the action that opponent will take based on that assumed range and the board" you can't really narrow someone range when they play 74/4 mkey?

so again, bet when you have it, give it up when you don't, stop trying to read them.

if you really want a read on them, i will give you the 2 most telling reads, the check min raise is a sign of huge strenght, i fold top pair top kicker here because like 90% of the time he has at least 2 pair, and second would be the huge overbet on the river, usually an all in on a small pot, this happens when they slowplayed a monster, set, flush, straight, and on the river they realise they don't have a pot so they go for the all in, make it look bluffy, maybe there will be a moron with top pair or something.

if you want you can post your hand chart here, and i can take a look at it. i still think your main problem is preflop, and that your are giving too much credit to the fish postflop, when you make reads you shouldn't be doing.

forsakenone said:

if you want you can post your hand chart here, and i can take a look at it. i still think your main problem is preflop, and that your are giving too much credit to the fish postflop, when you make reads you shouldn't be doing.

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Right now my default chart is below. I always play this for the 1st three orbits when I sit at a table and adjust accordingly:

EP: TT+ AQs+ AKo

MP: 88+ ATs+ AQo+ KJs+ QJs

Hijack: 77+ A8s+ AJo+ KTs+ KQo QTs+ JTs

CO: 55+ A2s+ ATo+ K9s+ KJo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T9s

Button: 22+ A2s+ A8o+ K7s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo J8s+ JTo 76s+ 75s+

3bet range: same as EP
4bet range: KK+

If the table is soft I will usually play 99,88 & AQo from EP, play 77 from MP and 55+ from the Hijack If I have decent history/ reads I will start 3betting AQ 99 88 vs. loose players and 4bet QQ vs light 3betters.

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I was reading a review of a book called the Elements of Poker by Tommy Angelo and the reviewer mentioned that Angelo eschews the idea of Middle Position, says there are 4 positions plus the blinds Early, Hijack, CO & Button and that from Early you should play 10% of hands and from the Button you should play 30%. I was playing with these numbers and I think a range like that might be something like:

EP: (UTG - MP2): 22+ AQo+ ATs+ KJs+ QJs (9.77% of hands)

Hijack: 22+ A8s+ AJo+ KTs+ KQo QTs+ JTs+ (14.91% of hands)

CO: 22+ A2s+ ATo+ K9s+ KTo+ Q9s+ QTo+ J9s+ JTo 76s+ (22.45% of hands)

Button: 22+ A2s+ A2o+ K7s+ K9o+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo 76s+ 86s+
(33.04% of hands)

I haven't tried this yet but am contemplating trying this for a thousand hands or so and seeing how it works.

fx20736 said:

Right now my default chart is below. I always play this for the 1st three orbits when I sit at a table and adjust accordingly:

EP: TT+ AQs+ AKo

MP: 88+ ATs+ AQo+ KJs+ QJs

Hijack: 77+ A8s+ AJo+ KTs+ KQo QTs+ JTs

CO: 55+ A2s+ ATo+ K9s+ KJo+ Q9s+ QJo J9s+ T9s

Button: 22+ A2s+ A8o+ K7s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo J8s+ JTo 76s+ 75s+

3bet range: same as EP
4bet range: KK+

If the table is soft I will usually play 99,88 & AQo from EP, play 77 from MP and 55+ from the Hijack If I have decent history/ reads I will start 3betting AQ 99 88 vs. loose players and 4bet QQ vs light 3betters.

*******************

I was reading a review of a book called the Elements of Poker by Tommy Angelo and the reviewer mentioned that Angelo eschews the idea of Middle Position, says there are 4 positions plus the blinds Early, Hijack, CO & Button and that from Early you should play 10% of hands and from the Button you should play 30%. I was playing with these numbers and I think a range like that might be something like:

EP: (UTG - MP2): 22+ AQo+ ATs+ KJs+ QJs (9.77% of hands)

Hijack: 22+ A8s+ AJo+ KTs+ KQo QTs+ JTs+ (14.91% of hands)

CO: 22+ A2s+ ATo+ K9s+ KTo+ Q9s+ QTo+ J9s+ JTo 76s+ (22.45% of hands)

Button: 22+ A2s+ A2o+ K7s+ K9o+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo 76s+ 86s+
(33.04% of hands)

I haven't tried this yet but am contemplating trying this for a thousand hands or so and seeing how it works.

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Elements of Poker is a great book, probably my all-time favorite poker book, BUT Tommy's starting hand charts and such are based on LIVE, LIMIT, holdem games. There are parts of the book that talk about NL but what you quoted isn't one of them.

Fwiw, I think you need to loosen up quite a bit especially as you get to the CO/BTN. Another concept from Tommy's book is the "bread and butter" position. He defines this as when he is the last raiser preflop AND he is in position postflop. Note cards are not relevant for him to be in a bread and butter situation. Position and initiative combine to be greater than most hole cards.

Check out the link in this post to read more of Elements. Really great stuff.

I think the best help you can get is from other players by posting hands in the HA section. That way you can hear from people on how to crush the level you are playing instead of hearing from people that know how to bluff at 2000nl

fx20736 said:

I was reading a review of a book called the Elements of Poker by Tommy Angelo and the reviewer mentioned that Angelo eschews the idea of Middle Position, says there are 4 positions plus the blinds Early, Hijack, CO & Button and that from Early you should play 10% of hands and from the Button you should play 30%. I was playing with these numbers and I think a range like that might be something like:

I haven't tried this yet but am contemplating trying this for a thousand hands or so and seeing how it works.

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That's what i have been trying to tell you, stop it, stop it right now, stop reading books and hope they will help you at 2nl, it won't work man, the players that guy plays are like a million levels above the ones you play. so stop it right now. play ABC poker, you have a hand, you bet, don't have a made hand, don't get frisky with it, that easy.

hand chart, well yours gives me a headache. i play 10nl and 25nl and i don't have a chart like that complicated, in fact i don't even have one because it is way easyer than you think, stop making things look complicated when they are simple.

my hand chart, here it is, i play 6 max btw, but for 2nl it goes like this:

AT, AJ, AQ, AK - i raise from any position
22-99 - i limp, or i will call a small raise, up to 8c to try and catch a set
TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA - i raise from any position

i might add to my play things like KQ, trying to isolate any huge fish at table, or KJ but that's about it.

i might play suited connectors in a multi way pot, again try to see a cheap flop, according to what i hit i continue or not, i don't continue unless i have 2 pair.

and thats about it, odds are i might not have to try to steal blinds from position, because, once again, odds are there is going to be a fish in that spot, of course if i am on the button, everyone folded and i have 2 nits on the blinds i will try and steal, but that does not happen a lot.

come to think about it, i think your biggest problems come from not raising big enough with your big hands. the best players at this level, including me (modest, i know) will raise at least to 14c preflop with lets say AK.

if you really need some help, add me on skype as forsakenone11 or on messanger as mesarosiudaniel and we can do a session.

Stop open limping and you'll be even more amazingly awesome!

forsakenone said:

That's what i have been trying to tell you, stop it, stop it right now, stop reading books and hope they will help you at 2nl, it won't work man, the players that guy plays are like a million levels above the ones you play. so stop it right now. play ABC poker, you have a hand, you bet, don't have a made hand, don't get frisky with it, that easy.

hand chart, well yours gives me a headache. i play 10nl and 25nl and i don't have a chart like that complicated, in fact i don't even have one because it is way easyer than you think, stop making things look complicated when they are simple.

my hand chart, here it is, i play 6 max btw, but for 2nl it goes like this:

AT, AJ, AQ, AK - i raise from any position
22-99 - i limp, or i will call a small raise, up to 8c to try and catch a set
TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA - i raise from any position

i might add to my play things like KQ, trying to isolate any huge fish at table, or KJ but that's about it.

i might play suited connectors in a multi way pot, again try to see a cheap flop, according to what i hit i continue or not, i don't continue unless i have 2 pair.

1. and thats about it, odds are i might not have to try to steal blinds from position, because, once again, odds are there is going to be a fish in that spot, of course if i am on the button, everyone folded and i have 2 nits on the blinds i will try and steal, but that does not happen a lot.

come to think about it, i think your biggest problems come from not raising big enough with your big hands. the best players at this level, including me (modest, i know) will raise at least to 14c preflop with lets say AK.

if you really need some help, add me on skype as forsakenone11 or on messanger as mesarosiudaniel and we can do a session.

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I do see some wisdom in what you're saying, just a few things;

1. while there are a lot of fish, idiots and maniacs at 2nl, there are some regs. We're here not because we want to play 2nl forever but because we want to learn the game of poker and move up in stakes, so I agree to a point that c-betting may be wasted in certain instances but there are alot of set miners out there so if you raise AK and whiff you can still frequently take down the pot because so many players will cold call a raise and play fit/ fold on the flop.
2. I do overthink a lot of things but that's the way my brain works. I am trying to learn the game so I can be playing for a real income soon.
3. I experimented with raising 5-7 bb with JJ+ for awhile and still do so if there is a player at the tables who will call that size raise but I found that for the most part hardly anyone plays back at me when I raise. In fact in the past 16 times I had AA I open raised with a pot sized bet 12 times and got a fold every single time. One time I 3 bet and opp folded, one time I 4bet shoved and KK called,unfortunately he rivered a King. The last time a short stack with 13bb open shoved KK and my AA held up.
4. I constantly debate myself about sm/ medium pocket pairs and how to play them. Ask 3 poker players and you'll get three answers; one scholl says open raise any pp from any position and c-bet the flop. another says fold these in EP but it is ok to call a small raise IP to set mine. A third will tell you to limp in and call a raise to try and flop a set. Option 2 and 3 just seem leaky, I have tried both and have not had any success at all. True you sometimes do stack someone but you also bleed a lot of chips to get there, you may not get paid off every time you flop a set and you do have to be aware that you will flop a set and sometimes lose to set over set, a straight or a flush. The 1st option seems best to me as I'm guessing c-betting the flop regardless should make the play break even and the times you do flop a set you should make a profit if you play it well. Playing more hands in EP might also get me more action on the big pairs also.

WVHillbilly said:

.

Fwiw, I think you need to loosen up quite a bit especially as you get to the CO/BTN.

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I'm trying. I haven't opened KTo or 76s from the CO yet but am trying to loosen up. The one thing I am trying to get over is when I get caught stealing I instinctively want to tighten up next orbit.

fx20736 said:

I'm trying. I haven't opened KTo or 76s from the CO yet but am trying to loosen up. The one thing I am trying to get over is when I get caught stealing I instinctively want to tighten up next orbit.

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What do you mean get "caught" stealing?

WVHillbilly said:

What do you mean get "caught" stealing?

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When I get 3bet from the blinds and I am holding a rag ace or weak King.

fx20736 said:

I do see some wisdom in what you're saying, just a few things;

1. while there are a lot of fish, idiots and maniacs at 2nl, there are some regs. We're here not because we want to play 2nl forever but because we want to learn the game of poker and move up in stakes, so I agree to a point that c-betting may be wasted in certain instances but there are alot of set miners out there so if you raise AK and whiff you can still frequently take down the pot because so many players will cold call a raise and play fit/ fold on the flop.
2. I do overthink a lot of things but that's the way my brain works. I am trying to learn the game so I can be playing for a real income soon.
3. I experimented with raising 5-7 bb with JJ+ for awhile and still do so if there is a player at the tables who will call that size raise but I found that for the most part hardly anyone plays back at me when I raise. In fact in the past 16 times I had AA I open raised with a pot sized bet 12 times and got a fold every single time. One time I 3 bet and opp folded, one time I 4bet shoved and KK called,unfortunately he rivered a King. The last time a short stack with 13bb open shoved KK and my AA held up.
4. I constantly debate myself about sm/ medium pocket pairs and how to play them. Ask 3 poker players and you'll get three answers; one scholl says open raise any pp from any position and c-bet the flop. another says fold these in EP but it is ok to call a small raise IP to set mine. A third will tell you to limp in and call a raise to try and flop a set. Option 2 and 3 just seem leaky, I have tried both and have not had any success at all. True you sometimes do stack someone but you also bleed a lot of chips to get there, you may not get paid off every time you flop a set and you do have to be aware that you will flop a set and sometimes lose to set over set, a straight or a flush. The 1st option seems best to me as I'm guessing c-betting the flop regardless should make the play break even and the times you do flop a set you should make a profit if you play it well. Playing more hands in EP might also get me more action on the big pairs also.

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indeed, you can sometimes take the pot down with a c-bet when you miss, thats why i have a stat called "fold to c-bet", i also have other stats i use at this level like went to showdown, and won at showdown % and 3 bet preflop and fold to 3bet, i do use them, and i do apply diffrent strategies, depending on whom i have to deal with.

now the reason i don't raise small pocket pairs preflop is because if i raise, and i get reraised i now have to fold my small pocket pair because i no longer have implied odds, so i can no longer try to catch a set.

lets say i have 77, i raise to 8c, i get reraised to 26c, i will miss the flop 7 times and i will catch a set 1 out of 8 times. 26x7=1.82$

if i call this and i will make a set 1 out of 8 times, and, lets say i win a full stack every time, 2$ thats it, and i lose 7 times when i make this call, i am only making a profit of 18c. and can i be sure i go all in and win 100 BBs every time i catch a set? no i can't

now, if i limp, midle position, with 77, same guy, has same hand, now it is unlikely he will raise to 26c, he will probably raise to 8c, i will now call, i lose 7 times i make this call aka 56c, and the time i make my set i have to win, in the long run, only 56c to make it a break even deal.

i do not play like this at 10nl, just to make this clear, i only do it at 2nl. i hope i didnt make any bad mats cause i don't feel like rereading my post.

fx20736 said:

When I get 3bet from the blinds and I am holding a rag ace or weak King.

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So you feel you're getting caught if you have to fold? What's the difference if you open 55 in the CO (in your range) or 92o? If you get 3bet you're folding both right? And if they flat you're not going to be happy continuing on most flops.

Do you feel like you've been "caught" if you open TT from UTG and then fold when the BTN 3bets you?

WVHillbilly said:

So you feel you're getting caught if you have to fold? What's the difference if you open 55 in the CO (in your range) or 92o? If you get 3bet you're folding both right? And if they flat you're not going to be happy continuing on most flops.

Do you feel like you've been "caught" if you open TT from UTG and then fold when the BTN 3bets you?

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No, maybe I phrased it wrong. I guess my first reaction to getting 3bet when I open raised A6o from the button is: "wow I could have just saved those chips instead of throwing them away!"

I guess that's analagous to only remembering the times I shoved with KK and ran into Aces. It's easy to forget the times AK or QQ called my shove and lost yet I remember the times I ran into AA for a long time.

Very simple. Play ABC poker. Keep pots small with mediocre hands. Don't overbet with ok hands. Bet big with big ones. Do show down once in a while in small pot with junk early to get it in their heads that you are a "bluffer."

Most of those guys can't let go if they hit the board in some way.