Post-flop bet sizing

Need some good information on this one. I just basically fumble around and hope it doesn't get too disasterous.

The following is the way I approach post-flop bets.

Obvious adjustments I'm stating just to get it done with: when playing TAG, all bets are bigger than when playing LAG. Bet bigger vs opponents who call too much. Bet bigger OOP than IP.

Also the following is assuming a regular pot (i.e. not 3bet/4bet).

Flop:
50%-100% of the pot size.
50% is either a cbet with air vs a fish or IP on a very dry board.
60-75% is standard for most situations, the difference is for against unknowns or fish, bigger is value, smaller is a bluff.
76-100% very drawy board, or OOP vs multiple opponents.

Turn:
It's either 50-60% or 80-100% of pot size.
50-60% is standard and I actually lean more towards the 50%
80-100% is for value against fish, OOP multiway, or on a very drawy board.

River:
I hate this online, I have great difficulty getting value on both the turn and river. If the stack sizes allow a shove then I can value shove big but the rest of the time I get stuck doing these >40% value bets if I've bet every street so far, and often 80-100% if I checked the turn.
So anyway, getting value on the river... if anyone has anything worth saying on that subject, I'd really like to hear it.

Bet-sizing is really, really, really hard. Of all the things you learn on your way to mastering poker (as if there was such a thing) this is almost certainly the final frontier.

Some very general points (that are still board and opponent dependent) in no particular order of importance:

• If you're playing for a Big Pot, then your turn bet should be such that you have roughly a pot-sized bet left in your stack for the river, regardless of if you're bluffing or value-betting.
• Versus players who fit/fold the flop, c-bet small when you're bluffing but big when you're not. Not many players pay attention to bet-sizes, so you'll usually get away with this highly exploitable strategy. If someone notices, you need to balance it, but I'm trying to keep this short.
• Versus players who "always" peel but usually give up on the turn, bet big on the flop but small on the turn.
• Don't bet an amount that will leave you committed and clueless if you get raised. It's alright to be committed, and it's alright to be clueless, but it's not okay to be both.

I could go on and on.

Thanks for that.

I think my winrate just went up a little.
The first 3 of those I've failed to implement so far. 3 leaks patched up in 9 minutes, not bad.

Btw, in order to make a turn bet that leaves a pot sized bet in the effective stack, you do (pot size - effective stack size) / 3

So if the pot is $40 and the effective stack is $133, let's say, then your turn bet should be

(133 - 40) / 3 = ~ 90 / 3 = 30

This topic requires a hell of a response, need to justify the extremely well thought out op.

I've been struggling with bet-sizes as well so it is a great topic/response for me. Another obvious one would be betting smaller on dry boards and bigger on wet boards, regardless of what you have. But should we really adjust bet sizes according to our hand? As FP said it's highly exploitable, and even if it works at the micros aren't we creating a very bad habbit, a bad automatism in the brain that will be hard to un-learn later?

ComplexPlaya said:

I've been struggling with bet-sizes as well so it is a great topic/response for me. Another obvious one would be betting smaller on dry boards and bigger on wet boards, regardless of what you have.

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When it comes to dry vs wet boards, the much more important problem to get right is whether to bet at all. On dry boards, the answer is almost always "yes" and on wet boards it's fairly often "no." Once you decide that you have a hand that you want to bet on either board, then yes - smaller on dry boards and bigger on wet boards. When I bet a wet board, I will usually have either a strong draw or a very big hand (or absolute air without any kind of way of improving to a hand I'm willing to see a showdown with). My response to a raise will almost never be a call. So on wet boards, I like to put my opponent in a spot where if he raises, he's either facing a shove or folds out a hand that he was crushing anyway.

But should we really adjust bet sizes according to our hand?

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Against regs, you either need to not do it, or balance it well. Balancing it isn't trivial, so it's usually best to just bet the same amount regardless of your holding. But regs - the good kind, the kind that adjusts to exploitable strategies - don't typically fit-or-fold flops anyway. I meant more like loose/passive players who love to see flops and haven't really figured out what to do when they miss, which they do much more often than not. These are not players who have a game-plan, because if they did they wouldn't see 40% of flops but fold 70% of them. And if they somehow figure out what you're doing AND adjust to it AND maybe even take a not on you, then you've found such a unique species of fish that I think your best course of action is to stick him in a jar or alcohol and bring him to the Smithsonian.

F Paulsson said:

When it comes to dry vs wet boards, the much more important problem to get right is whether to bet at all. On dry boards, the answer is almost always "yes" and on wet boards it's fairly often "no." Once you decide that you have a hand that you want to bet on either board, then yes - smaller on dry boards and bigger on wet boards. When I bet a wet board, I will usually have either a strong draw or a very big hand (or absolute air without any kind of way of improving to a hand I'm willing to see a showdown with). My response to a raise will almost never be a call. So on wet boards, I like to put my opponent in a spot where if he raises, he's either facing a shove or folds out a hand that he was crushing anyway.

Against regs, you either need to not do it, or balance it well. Balancing it isn't trivial, so it's usually best to just bet the same amount regardless of your holding. But regs - the good kind, the kind that adjusts to exploitable strategies - don't typically fit-or-fold flops anyway. I meant more like loose/passive players who love to see flops and haven't really figured out what to do when they miss, which they do much more often than not. These are not players who have a game-plan, because if they did they wouldn't see 40% of flops but fold 70% of them. And if they somehow figure out what you're doing AND adjust to it AND maybe even take a not on you, then you've found such a unique species of fish that I think your best course of action is to stick him in a jar or alcohol and bring him to the Smithsonian.

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I guess I cbet wet boards too much then and should be thinking about c/f more often.

I guess bet-sizing according to your hand only against a particular type makes more sense as it's not something you'll get that used to you'll do it automatically on higher levels etc.

ComplexPlaya said:

I guess I cbet wet boards too much then and should be thinking about c/f more often.

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c/f a T-9-5 twotone flop with AK is just fine. And with 88. You can check back (or check/call) a hand like JJ or JT or AT and re-evaluate on the turn, but you're not going to make a lot of money with anything weaker than top pair on a board like that. A9 is probably a check/fold, a little depending on the opponent.

I guess bet-sizing according to your hand only against a particular type makes more sense as it's not something you'll get that used to you'll do it automatically on higher levels etc.

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I mean, it's the exception, not the rule. I have a default cbet size for certain boards, and I consciously deviate from that when I'm playing fish.

F Paulsson said:

c/f a T-9-5 twotone flop with AK is just fine. And with 88. You can check back (or check/call) a hand like JJ or JT or AT and re-evaluate on the turn, but you're not going to make a lot of money with anything weaker than top pair on a board like that. A9 is probably a check/fold, a little depending on the opponent.

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I see alot of players such as tags, regs betting by default esp. IP when I don't cbet, isn't c/r a better line maybe? Or c/c and bet the turn...or is that getting too fancy on wet boards and those lines should just be applied more on dry and semi-wet boards

If you're in position, how are you going to check raise? Do you mean first to act, or have I just guessed wrongly that by saying IP you mean in position?

I would never check on a wet board with a hand which could easily be outdrawn unless I was 100% convinced that the villain would c-bet, simply because otherwise you're offering him free cards to improve his hand. And I'm very rarely 100% convinced that villain will c-bet

ComplexPlaya said:

I see alot of players such as tags, regs betting by default esp. IP when I don't cbet, isn't c/r a better line maybe? Or c/c and bet the turn...or is that getting too fancy on wet boards and those lines should just be applied more on dry and semi-wet boards

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I'd need a very specific read to c/r a wet board with anything. I can't say if I've ever done it, other than in 3bet pots (where my raise is a jam). On wet boards, my goal is to either bet/fold or bet/shove, like I said. The whole point with bet/shoving is that I get the last bet, which is good when

1) I'm hoping for fold equity with a strong draw, or
2) I have a really big hand (e.g. set) and want to charge him the max if he wants to play.

But it's not only about getting the last bet, it's also about denying free cards. So the first bet is important, the last bet is important... Getting the middle bet? Not so much. I mean, say you check/raise AJ on a J-T-5 twotone flop, and he folds. What have you accomplished? Or he shoves. Now what? It's not precisely a fistpump call versus most opponents. So you're forcing him to shove or fold, which is what YOU want to do, not what you want him to do.

F Paulsson said:

When it comes to dry vs wet boards, the much more important problem to get right is whether to bet at all. On dry boards, the answer is almost always "yes" and on wet boards it's fairly often "no."

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What goes into the "no" on dry boards?

I'm thinking a hand that might have showdown value (Ace high, middle pairs, medium pocket pairs) combined with an aggressive but not maniac player where you know he knows it's dry and he might opt to check/raise thereby bloating the pot. Or maybe when by betting you make it too easy for them to float when they check/call the flop and then bet out on the turn when they are OOP, or call your flop bet almost forcing you to bet the turn or to check/call their turn bet when you are OOP?

I guess, situations where betting is going not going to fold better hands because it's so dry and your opponent knows that, and creates a risk where you might later have to fold the best hand or put more money in with the worst hand?


Eg. a couple of days ago, $100nl FR, bvb, SB completes, I raise, he calls. Flop is extremely dry, he checks, I bet, he checkraises, I fold.

NineLions said:

What goes into the "no" on dry boards?

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Situations where "only better hands will call, worse will always fold" come to mind, though that's obviously opponent-dependent. I often, for instance, check back QQ on a A-3-3r flop against a guy who plays the flop tightly.

I'm thinking a hand that might have showdown value (Ace high, middle pairs, medium pocket pairs) combined with an aggressive but not maniac player where you know he knows it's dry and he might opt to check/raise thereby bloating the pot. Or maybe when by betting you make it too easy for them to float when they check/call the flop and then bet out on the turn when they are OOP, or call your flop bet almost forcing you to bet the turn or to check/call their turn bet when you are OOP?

I guess, situations where betting is going not going to fold better hands because it's so dry and your opponent knows that, and creates a risk where you might later have to fold the best hand or put more money in with the worst hand?


Eg. a couple of days ago, $100nl FR, bvb, SB completes, I raise, he calls. Flop is extremely dry, he checks, I bet, he checkraises, I fold.

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A lot of people like bluffing at dry boards, just because it's so difficult for you to have anything. If I bet a K-3-3 flop, what could call a checkraise? AA. AK. KK. A3s, if that's in my range. The rest of my range is just dying to give up as soon as possible. So yeah, check back (or check/call) a lot of your medium strength hands, and bet all your monsters and hope they try to strong-arm you out of the pot. Slowplaying dry boards, versus certain opponents, can be a huge mistake. The one thing to remember when playing monsters fast on a dry board is to make sure to leave the last bet to your opponent; give him a sense that he has fold equity with his last raise, because otherwise he'll just give up. Getting someone to put in their entire stack bluffing and drawing dead on the flop is one of the sexiest feelings in poker.

But yeah, you're going to get bluffed out of the pot on dry boards sometimes. It happens; just fold and move on. In most cases, all you've invested is a preflop raise and a (smaller than average) c-bet. Not many players are wild enough to actually exploit you in that spot, because it requires a lot of raises and, really, people are so happy when they get to pull it off once in a blue moon. And remember, it doesn't cost much to fold on the flop.

Specifically because so many players single-barrel dry flops, floating them with the intention of stealing the pot when you get checked to on the turn works very often. As mentioned elsewhere, I prefer to make that floating range something that has at least a decent backdoor draw. So basically:

You have Js9s on the button and flat a CO open. Blinds fold. Flop comes



Pretty good spot to call a bet. You have backdoor flush and straight draws, and because of the board texture, many opponents will have serious doubts about betting the turn without having some piece of it. This play comes easily balanced, too (at least for me) because you can easily have AQ/KQ/QJ when you call the flop, and you will (should) bet the turn when checked to. If he gets fancy and checkraises the turn, just muck (also with the top pair hands). Not many people will do that without a real hand, and the times that it happens will not outweigh the times that the float works out for you.

I'm getting a little off-topic from bet sizing here, but... Meh.

One day FP, I will ask you to coach me, you will say yes and you will make me the happiest man on the planet.

Ahem....

The only person I've ever coached is Belgo, and that felt a little bit like a waste of an hour because I mostly just sat there saying "yup, looks good to me."

Wait, was I supposed to answer "Yes! A thousand times yes!" Or maybe "I... Oh, Lucky... It's not you, it's me."

I only ask you to follow your heart . Maybe in a few months when I'm possible not playing for nickels I might ask seriously