Position Related Question

SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
SNIP<<<<< no matter who calls (if anyone) we have the huge advantage of acting last after each Street after pre. NEVER EVER EVER EVER... Underestimate the importance of acting after your opponent. You must recognize that your opponent misses the flop about 70% of the time. >>>>>SNIP

The above is a snippet from Jblocher1's 1K post, and I believe is a great statement, and should be required reading for all players.

Position is important, no doubt about it and if anyone disagrees with that, maybe poker isn't your game. Some like to be the first to act, be the aggressor where others (and maybe most) like to act last. Please comment on the scenario below:

You're UTG with a great hand, AA, KK or AK Suited let's say, you're probably going to raise with that. Folds around to the Button who has been playing loose but aggressive and he 3 bets you. You know his range is a lot wider than yours and most here would 4-bet. Is there an advantage to checking here to basically give him the lead and give a bit of a false impression of weakness?

  • Flop hits good, giving you TPTK, a set, maybe nut flush draw. Now you can check to further disguise your hand as weak hoping he will bet into you.
  • Flop is a brick for you and on the dry side, but knowing his range, he could have hit something decent, now you have something to think about
  • Flop is a brick for you, but very wet with a pair and middle or high suited connectors. Now your monster hand could be reduced to a pile of crap a crow wouldn't eat.

I don't like slow-playing anything, and at times it can lead to a loss that could be more than you had the opportunity to win. Normally (unless I have nuts) I don't like hands to go past the Flop. Am I throwing away money there at times? Yes, I am, but I think by getting players off the hand early and getting what you can out of it without them seeing the turn or the river can be profitable.

However, in the first bullet point, I'm tempted to milk the villain for whatever I can, 2nd and I'm thinking hard, and in the 3rd, maybe take the medicine and get out while you can get out cheap if he comes back at you.

Thoughts and discussions? (If this has been discussed ad nauseum previously, I apologize).
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Does anyone think position is not important? That example is strange, just slow play top pair/over pair OOP and get no value from your premium hand? I don't understand what you are trying to get at here?
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Absolutely dude. Too many players think this.

Wow, that legit blows my mind haha.

Someone should smack them up side the head with a poker book, or not, easy money for us I suppose :p
 
SeaRun

SeaRun

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 26, 2014
Total posts
697
Chips
0
SNIP<<< That example is strange, just slow play top pair/over pair OOP and get no value from your premium hand? I don't understand what you are trying to get at here?

Wouldn't that example be called trapping, especially with bullet point 1 on the flop?

EDIT:

Also, I was trying to point out how slow-playing can get you in a whole heap of shyte.
 
hashtag

hashtag

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 7, 2014
Total posts
142
Chips
0
I don't like slow-playing anything, and at times it can lead to a loss that could be more than you had the opportunity to win. Normally (unless I have nuts) I don't like hands to go past the Flop. Am I throwing away money there at times? Yes, I am, but I think by getting players off the hand early and getting what you can out of it without them seeing the turn or the river can be profitable.

At microstakes I fully understand this reasoning. I used to hate going beyond the flop. I'm making more nowadays because I'm making decisions that control the pot size better on flop and turn to my liking. Getting better at getting away from suck out turns and rivers is important if you want to go beyond the flop. Also, when the pot is small, you would be amazed how many times middle and bottom pair win the pot at showdown and profit is made. Being able to judge these showdown calls correctly took time for me though.

Playing OOP for me is opponent dependent.

Somebody with 85% cbet, or 80%+ bet on the flop to act after me with my TPTK? Yea, I'm checking that OOP and reraising or just calling if my range is better than his.

Somebody with a very low fold to cbet to act after me with two-pair? Yea, I'm betting most of the pot and he probably calls.

A moron, calls any draw or calls down with middle pair and I have TPTK or overpair? Hahahaha, this is microstakes!! ALL IN BABY YEAH!!!!

The above are very black and white examples, but they are based on opponent. OOP is good for slow playing and inducing. IP is good for everything else.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Wouldn't that example be called trapping, especially with bullet point 1 on the flop?

EDIT:

Also, I was trying to point out how slow-playing can get you in a whole heap of shyte.

I agree, trapping with just a pair is just passive poker and not really a hand worth trapping with.

Now if you flop top set.... Lets trap all day :D
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
I am never slow playing KK pre. With AA slow playing is only an option IP never OOP. AK is a hand that I play in a variety of ways pre flop.

If you think a player is bad enough to get trapped with top pair why do you think he won't call a 4 bet pre?

As for the scenario in the OP, I would shove with AK and make a large 4 bet with AA and KK.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Trapping with 1 pair is just trapping yourself... And it lets everyone in to beat you...

Often see it they will raise 1 street too late when they have already lost the hand. And wonder where it all went wrong.



But ATC can win... But it's a lot easier with position to make a bigger % of hands +ev with extra information :)
 
Top