Position

straytfrush

straytfrush

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I have a question about position. I know that sometimes it's good to be able to see what the other guy does first, but especially later in MTTs having the opportunity to bet first seems to be the guy with the advantage. As the blinds get decently high a lot of pots seem to only be played by two people. When this is the case wouldn't it be preferable to be able to open. When having the option to bet first you may bet with overcards, mid pair, flush draw, straight draw etc. Given that the your opponent will only hit the flop roughly 40% of the time betting will put a lot of pressure on him. It's a lot harder to call or raise than it is to bet in the first place. Being that this is the case you can bet with a wider range post flop than you can call with. Wouldn't this be a clear advantage? I'm aware that preflop you want position to get a feel for what people have and to try to avoid getting reraised, but how does one take this into account?
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

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Position has a greater advantage the deeper the stacks are relative to the pot. So yeah, it's effect is very much reduced with high blinds.

There are advantages to being OOP.
1: Your range is stronger.
2: You've got the initiative.
So again you're right, being the first to bet has it's advantages.

I think what may be more relevent here is position based on the last aggressor (making them effectively the button). Since they've represented strength it's hard to lead into them and easy for them to bluff.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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Let's say we're oop (out of position) and bet first w one of those hands and get raised. What are we doing w those hands?

Ok, scenario two - we get called on the flop w one of those hands, and we're unimproved on the turn. Now what are we doing w those hands? Are we two barreling? If not, the guy in position will bet very broadly behind a check if he's a good player.

We'll want to have a good read on the guy in position. Against a passive player, betting the flop makes sense, but we're going to have to shut down on a lot of turns (unless he's both passive and really bad) - and even passive players realize that if we check the turn, we probably don't have a hand. Against thinking aggressive players who will raise or float a lot of flops w a broad range, this can be an expensive play.

Position is extremely important postflop, the advantage of taking initiative on the flop can be negated by good handreading and floating skills.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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Position has a greater advantage the deeper the stacks are relative to the pot. So yeah, it's effect is very much reduced with high blinds.

There are advantages to being OOP.
1: Your range is stronger.
2: You've got the initiative.
So again you're right, being the first to bet has it's advantages.

I think what may be more relevent here is position based on the last aggressor (making them effectively the button). Since they've represented strength it's hard to lead into them and easy for them to bluff.

You're absolutely correct here, I missed the late stages of the tourney comment, what I'm describing requires deeper stacks...
 
BeaverTrump

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I agree, that often being in the best position it appear in a unpleasant situation when at you a boundary card)))) on the one hand it allows you to play is more disciplined and to dump average on force a card, with another deprives with you an opportunity to steal blinds)))
 
Double-A

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Given that the your opponent will only hit the flop roughly 40% of the time betting will put a lot of pressure on him. It's a lot harder to call or raise than it is to bet in the first place. Being that this is the case you can bet with a wider range post flop than you can call with. Wouldn't this be a clear advantage?

Your advantage from acting last, is having more information than your opponent.

Being aggressive, betting/raising, CAN be good. It's preferable but it's not necessarily an advantage.

Selective aggression is the key. The more information you have, the better decisions you can make. So, we should be looking to play pots aggressively in position.

It seems like your viewing; having the lead in the betting order and having the option to continuation bet as an advantage. Having position out weighs both.

Your raise pre-flop, get one caller, and see a flop. You've got two options: bet or check. Most of the time, one of them is a mistake.

You make a standard cbet. Your opponent has THREE options: fold, call, or raise. Having more options is an advantage in itself but it doesn't end there. If he decides to proceed than he can control the size of the pot by: calling, min-raising, making a standard raise, or shoving.

If your opponent doesn't know how to take advantage of his position then you might be okay but...

Playing pots against thinking, aggressive, or tricky players OOP is recipe for pain and suffering.
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

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Your advantage from acting last, is having more information than your opponent.

Being aggressive, betting/raising, CAN be good. It's preferable but it's not necessarily an advantage.

Selective aggression is the key. The more information you have, the better decisions you can make. So, we should be looking to play pots aggressively in position.

It seems like your viewing; having the lead in the betting order and having the option to continuation bet as an advantage. Having position out weighs both.

Your raise pre-flop, get one caller, and see a flop. You've got two options: bet or check. Most of the time, one of them is a mistake.

You make a standard cbet. Your opponent has THREE options: fold, call, or raise. Having more options is an advantage in itself
Exactly. Well said.
But what if you shove? Then he's only got two.
What if you just bet enough that any raise would be pot committing? He's still only got two, shove or fold, since calling results in the same as shoving.


but it doesn't end there. If he decides to proceed than he can control the size of the pot by: calling, min-raising, making a standard raise, or shoving.
You're wrong. With deep stacks he can control the pot but with short stacks he can't. The guy OOP has as much control over it as the guy in position because it only takes a couple of bets to get stacks in.
There is no keeping the pot small with short stacks.


If your opponent doesn't know how to take advantage of his position then you might be okay but...

Playing pots against thinking, aggressive, or tricky players OOP is recipe for pain and suffering.

Responses in bold.
 
Double-A

Double-A

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Shoving limits our opponents options but it does not hurt his positional advantage. It really emphasizes his positional advantage because now he just calls with his strong hands, or draws with odds, and folds everything else. He stands to gain a lot or lose a little.

We've got our whole stack on the line. We stand to win the chips that were in the pot pre-flop or be eliminated. Anything else requires a big mistake from our opponent which he's less likely to make IP.

Sizing our bet makes our opponents decisions more difficult but doesn't take away his positional advantage.

We're going to play a short stack differently than a big one, sure. You seem to be talking about very specific blind/stack ratios and I'm not sure how we got there.
 
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imo being in position is better than out no matte what. In tourney play I do agree that its slightly reduced as blinds get high, as people opening the pot will often never be folding, but again this is also an advantage as you know you are never getting villain to fold due to stacksizes. Therefore we carry on and get value with the top of our range and fold the rest.

Also in my experience, donking at a pot OOP just brings trouble, as you are in a horrible spot if villain raises and an even more horrible spot(sometimes) when villain flats. If villain folds to your donk bet then you would probably always winning this pot anyway.
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

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I'm talking about high blinds relative to the stack sizes.

Somewhere around 20bb stack or less. A lot deeper if there was a 3bet and call pre-flop.

What you've said makes sense if the stacks are deeper, 30bb+ and a lot deeper if 3bet and called pre-flop.




All I'm saying is that the smaller the stacks get the less positional advantage there is from having the button.
 
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