Pocket kings question

Jackle43

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Alright so we get pocket kings and raise and pick up a call from a reg. flop comes A22r reg checks. Now if we bet are we only getting called by better? Do we check back here an see if he fires the turn or bet and try to get all of his pocket pairs to fold??
 
LD1977

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I think he might well fold an Ace to a 2nd barrel (something like ATs-AQs that is dominated by your potential AK).
 
Aleksei

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Depends on read frankly. If villain is tight we could get him to (as stated above) fold AQ- or weak suited Ace to 2nd barrel. If he's loose there's all sorts of Ace-rags in his range and you're in trouble, but there's also worse PPs and even undercard Broadways (if he's really bad and stationy) that will call.
 
Jackle43

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Well in this book I'm reading basically says we won't get called by worse and assess on a later street. I don't really agree.. Are pocket TT or 99 not floating this flop sometimes and will fold to turn aggression as well. By checking we almost look like we are giving up because there is a higher card then our pair on the board??
 
Beanfacekilla

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Alright so we get pocket kings and raise and pick up a call from a reg. flop comes A22r reg checks. Now if we bet are we only getting called by better? Do we check back here an see if he fires the turn or bet and try to get all of his pocket pairs to fold??

I would c-bet here to see what villain does. I have been in this type of spot plenty of times.

They don't know you have K-K. Bet anyways, and represent the A. Most times they fold. If they call, you can start narrowing down their range.

There will be times you lose here. But overall never check behind with flop like this. I can tell you one thing for sure, if you check behind you probably won't win the pot against a level 2 thinking player.
 
Jackle43

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Alright so c bet flop. What should turn play be if we get called and turn comes a blank
 
Aleksei

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Alright so c bet flop. What should turn play be if we get called and turn comes a blank
Barrel it. We're trying to rep TPTK here and get a worse A to fold. If Villain is a station we lose to weak Aces (but get value from worse PPs etc.), but if he's good he'll believe we have AK and fold.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Barrel it. We're trying to rep TPTK here and get a worse A to fold. If Villain is a station we lose to weak Aces (but get value from worse PPs etc.), but if he's good he'll believe we have AK and fold.

I agree with this. Well said Aleksei.
 
ScottieDuncan

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I say check and see a flop. See what he does. He could possibly have a 2, but, I doubt it. A yes. Cautious.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I say check and see a flop. See what he does. He could possibly have a 2, but, I doubt it. A yes. Cautious.

Check and see a flop? We are on the flop........ A-2-2 rainbow. OP has K-K, and villain has checked to OP.
 
Jackle43

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Ok we'll seems my thought of spots like this seem to agree with cc members and not what a few books and vids seem to say. I guess if they call a blank turn they are propably not folding many rivers? Check back river an try to get showdown or barrel again??
 
Beanfacekilla

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Ok we'll seems my thought of spots like this seem to agree with cc members and not what a few books and vids seem to say. I guess if they call a blank turn they are propably not folding many rivers? Check back river an try to get showdown or barrel again??

I guess this really depends on the villain. A fish will likely call you all the way down with A-3. A smarter player will probably lay down (who knows). Against a fish I would probably check back on river (I don't know), or go with my gut...

Me personally, I would trust my gut. But it's not the end of the world if they call your triple barrel. If you are rolled properly, it will be ok.

This may not be the best advice. I am curious to see what others have to offer as well. Take my advice with a grain of salt. It is just my opinion. And with poker, "it just depends" seems fitting here.
 
Aleksei

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This is kind of a tough third barrel to fire. You want some of your river bets to be bluffs for balance, but if you're gonna barrel KK as a bluff you might get Villain to call all Aces and fold lower PPs next time you're in this spot. So, I'm not sure what to do here.
 
fletchdad

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It will be soooooooo player dependent as well as how he sees you.

Also some more info would be nice. No idea if you are 6 max or FR, where you open from, where he calls from, stakes, dynamics between you 2 and so on.
 
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It entirely depends on the player. Some regs are morons. The thing is that any competent regular can identify exactly what you would do in this spot with AK/45s. Seeing as you bet flop with all your value hands and all your bluff hands, a decent player understands that by checking you must have a PP in the region of JJ-KK. Maybe TT occasionally, the reason we can confine your range to such a small section of PP's is because with 99 and lower you are betting as a bluff to make him fold all his equity with JT/KQ because you would hate to see an overcard come.

I think this spot comes under the matter of balancing, but TBH Jackle from what I can gather us micro players shouldn't worry about balancing our range so I check back here vs almost anyone.
 
Yoshimiii

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At micro-stakes, double barreling this board is just horrible, good luck trying to get villain to fold an ace. I would usually check it back, way behind/ahead situation here and we will only go for one street of value. I wouldn't bluff this board anyway.
 
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LD1977

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In 2NL people generally fold to 2nd barrel, in 5NL seems not.
So maybe more blinds level dependent than player dependent.
 
RodneyC86

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In 2NL people generally fold to 2nd barrel, in 5NL seems not.
So maybe more blinds level dependent than player dependent.
2NLers don't usually fold 2nd barrel actually
I'd be careful with that statement about 5nl. It really only applies to 6max 5NL, not FR 5NL. FR 5NLers are ridiculously nitty.
My theory on why this is is because....
FR 5NL players are filled with 2NL FR 'graduates' (FR is where almost all beginners start), these guys are fairly disciplined aspiring players who play weak tight ABC.
6max 5nl on the other hand are filled with people with inflated postflop ego after switching from long time FRing in midmicrostakes and started playing 6max 2nl and still pwned despite actually horrible postflop as there's still a lot of fish. They then proceed to move to 5nl with still horrible postflop. ;)
 
duggs

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dont try to make people fold top pair by double barreling.

but much more importantly if you decide you want to have a range that double barrels as a bluff? why on earth would you put KK in that range?
 
WVHillbilly

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Checking it back it standard/ usually optimal. It's the classic WA/WB scenario.

We call if he bets the turn (and bet if he checks again). On the river if he's bet turn and river we play some poker and base our decision on the player (generally unless some obvious draw misses we should fold to a turn/river bet/bet line against most micro stakes players). If he checks again we can, against some opponents, bet again for value but against the nittier ones checking it back is generally best.

Thinking that almost anyone is folding an Ace to any line at 2nl is pretty lol.
 
Cafeman

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dont try to make people fold top pair by double barreling.

Thank goodness someone brought this up. We don't make money by getting people to fold TP. Dear oh dear!
 
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most bets are going to be searching for info so all depends on what your raise bet was and the what you expect your opp to do if they dont have an ace any bet should be one you are willing to give up however if you dont like their responce
 
Beanfacekilla

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Well I guess I play differently than some.

Why on earth would anyone check behind on this flop? There are only 3 other aces in the deck, and some of you talking like villain absolutely - no questions asked - has the ace here.

OP might as well just tell villain "hey, I don't have an ace" by checking behind. If villain calls flop, ranging starts there for me. I am not checking flop, and just giving away the chance to win the pot right there.

And you can certainly get some info by betting flop. And just because villain calls, doesn't mean he has the ace or 2.
 
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