PLO: AAKQds

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msufan

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Online 6-max $.50/$1.00 PLO on Bovada, all 6 seats are full. One player has been a loose cannon, but everyone else is playing fairly normally. Usually there's one raise preflop and 2-3 players make it to the flop. We are in the big blind for this hand and are starting the hand with $50.

Hero is dealt a near-perfect starting hand: :ad4: :ah4: :kd4: :qh4:

Action before it gets to us: UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, Normal Guy raises to $5.50, button folds, and Mr. Loose Cannon calls $5.50 from the small blind.

What should hero do from here?

1. Raise pot? Obviously we have about the best possible PLO starting hand. We can raise to as much as $24 (if we called the $5.50, there would be $18.50 in the pot, so our max raise is $18.50 more). If we do this, we expect to be called by both of the people who've already put in $5.50 and no one else. Certainly it is possible that the Normal Guy could fold, and if he does, the Loose Cannon might not want to call that much more in a heads up pot, but all indications are that Loose Cannon will call from the small blind no matter what. If we do raise pot, are there any flops in which we would be unwilling to commit our last $26, or are we effectively committing our entire stack right now?

2. Raise smaller? Is there any merit to raising less than pot? If so, how much should we raise and why? Are we trying to keep people around, disguise our hand, or prevent ourselves from becoming pot-committed?

3. Smooth call? If we feel like a pot-sized raise commits our whole stack with just a pair of aces, are we better off smooth calling and seeing what hits the flop?
 
Makwa

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Raise pot and isolate Loose Cannon, I would. If you flop any A or draw ur committed after that....

No u do not want to try to 'keep people around'..
 
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NoOneYouKnow

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Raise pot and isolate Loose Cannon, I would. If you flop any A or draw ur committed after that....

No u do not want to try to 'keep people around'..

We have half pot behind after we 3bet. We are committed on any flop.
 
c9h13no3

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The smaller you can get the SPR preflop when you have the nuts, the better.
 
LuckyChippy

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I don't even play plo but I know that we 3bet and bet any flop. Move down.
 
jbbb

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I don't even play plo but I know that we 3bet and bet any flop. Move down.

haha this 100%. Why are you sitting with 50bb? Why are you playing 100PL when you are wondering whether to 3b AAKQds.
 
tenbob

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I don't even play plo but I know that we 3bet and bet any flop. Move down.

Its a live game, so most likely the smallest game available.

Pot pre, get in on any flop, lose lots of times. Easy game.
 
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msufan

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What if Hero was sitting with $70? Then are there any flops we can get away from? What about $100? Does our ability to get away from the hand change if we get 1 caller instead of 2?
 
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msufan

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The smaller you can get the SPR preflop when you have the nuts, the better.

What's your threshold for a stack-to-pot ratio that absolutely commits us? If we put in 1/3 of our stack preflop, are we committed? 1/4? 1/2?
 
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Sori

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Yea, I am very curious on what your opinions are on the postflop play here, if we miss the flop completely. I would max 3-bet here and shove regardless of the flop, but I am pretty new to PLO. How to stack sizes change our bet size preflop, or are we always max 3-betting with this hand?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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What's your threshold for a stack-to-pot ratio that absolutely commits us? If we put in 1/3 of our stack preflop, are we committed? 1/4? 1/2?
I honestly don't know. PLO is one of my worst games. Certainly if we put in 1/3 of our stack (a 4-bet pot, typically), we're pretty much never folding postflop. Any less than that, and I'm not sure I could give you a super good answer.

But its only common sense that the more money you can put in when you have the nuts, the better.
 
xdeucesx

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If you put in 1/3 of stack preflop, your stacking pretty much any flop, unless

678, 8910,.....

in our example,

w/50 bbs, literally stacking any flop

bi full + move down in stakes, no offense but your going to get crushed playing 50plo w/50bbs asking basic questions such as op
 
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baudib1

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No way you can fold, especially the T98.
 
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PotluckXXI

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I actually prefer this hand to AAKKds, frankly there isn't any hand he could have that is better so potting and re-raising pre are great, in fact this is one of the very few hands that I would get it all in pre-flop.
 
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BlueNowhere

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I don't even play plo but I know that we 3bet and bet any flop. Move down.

This. I get confused on whether I have a full house or not in PLO and I know that you raise pre and shove flop.
 
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msufan

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Sounds like the consensus is that it was an easy pot/shove on any flop. Was just curious because there's a good chance we're getting just under half our stack in as a 60/40 favorite and then often donking off more than half as a 25/75 dog or worse. That seems -EV.
 
jbbb

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Sounds like the consensus is that it was an easy pot/shove on any flop. Was just curious because there's a good chance we're getting just under half our stack in as a 60/40 favorite and then often donking off more than half as a 25/75 dog or worse. That seems -EV.

80% of the time you'll have over 50% equity.
http://www.propokertools.com/simulations/graph?g=oh&h1=As+Ks+Ah+Qh&h2=10%-40%&s=generic

Or you can run the graph against two players

http://www.propokertools.com/simulations/graph?g=oh&h1=As+Ks+Ah+Qh&h2=10%-40%&h3=7%-40%&s=generic

Not done the maths but intuition tells me you can probably profitable shove any flop.
 
tenbob

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lol I thought Bovada was a cardroom somewhere.
 
dwbrown7680

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With a hand as beautiful as AAKQ ds we are repotting and getting it in no matter how many callers or how the board texture comes. Even with 100 BB effective stacks the goal with a hand like this or any decent suited AA (not trash like AA39 no suit) is to get as much as we can in preflop to lower the effective SPR.

The best situation is to be able to get a 3 or 4 bet going pre as once we can safely commit 33% of our stack pre we have a SPR of <1 and we're just getting it in with a shove otf. There is no need to worry about what we're going up against as stated above we're always going to have enough equity to justify a shove/call otf.

Now in a multi-way pot where we know we're getting in at least 33% of our stack in pre against 2 people a hand like AAAK single suited is actually better than a hand like AAJ9 because we're holding that third ace. This means that neither of our opponents are sharing AA with us are we're likely heading to the flop against something akin to KKxx and QJ109, etc giving us a decent edge and good odds on taking it down.
 
dwbrown7680

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I actually prefer this hand to AAKKds, frankly there isn't any hand he could have that is better so potting and re-raising pre are great, in fact this is one of the very few hands that I would get it all in pre-flop.

You should be willing to get it aipf with any decent sort of AAxx that is at least single suited. You can even warrant doing it with AKKx ds or KQJ10 depending on the opponent and your reads.
 
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