Please Critique My LAGG Strategy!

S

SpeedBump621

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Total posts
44
Chips
0
Firstly, a sincere thank you to those of you who offer advice.

The scenario:

I've seen a player at NL20 who 3bets an insane amount preflop. I've seen him show down any suited King, any off suit connecting cards, as well as decent hands. He/she seems very spewy after the flop as well. Funny thing is this player is a substantially profitable player.

Here is my strat to deal with him while I get my feet wet at a bit higher of level where the challenges of the game increase:

I'll open properly with a solid range. If he 3 bets me I'm gonna start stacking off light with 4-bet shoves (KJs+ as well as 66 and better). When I actually play a flop with him I'll try to blunt his experience and skill. The plan is to be very passive and let him c-bet. If I hit top pair with a good kicker OR have a draw with 9 or more true outs I'm gonna check-jam him.

I think this strat will have major variance. It seems +EV to me. And obviously I'll use this as a way to get my feet wet until I can spot a few more obvious leaks in the aforementioned villains game.

Any thoughts/comments/suggestions? I'd really appreciate any feedback at all. Even a simple "sounds good" as at the moment......to me....this seems like a decent strat.....but I know damned well there are many of you who have crushed a player like this before and have the knowledge/experience to pick my plan apart if you wish.

Again, a HUGE TY!!
 
S

SpeedBump621

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Total posts
44
Chips
0
Ok. I'm assuming I've gotten no replies cuz i wrote a book instead of asking a straight forward question.

I employed the strat preflop. After 4 bet shoving twice resulting in villain folding......I foolishly repeated the move with KQs. Got called with AA and flushed on him. He left my table.

Next time I see him I guess I'll just have to pay special attention to his preflop play and I'm guessing he will most likely tighten his range once he "sets up his image". I'm assuming that's how he plays.

Still open to any critcism of my preflop 4bet shove range.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Why 4 bet shove KQs? That's a premium 3b flatting hand. Too strong to fold, too weak to 4b
 
S

Sidetracked

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 30, 2016
Total posts
1,294
Awards
2
Chips
0
Honestly, your strategy seems a bit scattershot. Watch some Baluga Whale videos from DeucesCracked about an aggressive 3 bet/4/bet/5 bet dynamic.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Nvm
 
Last edited:
Acesinthebig

Acesinthebig

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Total posts
1,264
Chips
0
Yes seems good, I would just be careful of players to act in between and after. Don't get too caught up on one particular player. But very good to have your game plan set for when the time comes.
 
S

SpeedBump621

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Total posts
44
Chips
0
Honestly, your strategy seems a bit scattershot. Watch some Baluga Whale videos from DeucesCracked about an aggressive 3 bet/4/bet/5 bet dynamic.

It definitely is a strategy created by a novice player (me). I'm trying to learn to play ring games against better opponents. Thank you for your recommendation. I'll watch those vids tonight.
 
S

SpeedBump621

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Total posts
44
Chips
0
Why 4 bet shove KQs? That's a premium 3b flatting hand. Too strong to fold, too weak to 4b

I'm new to breaking down opponents' ranges. This particular villain seems to be 3 betting very wide. So why jam KQ? I'm 4 bet jamming hands that crush his 3bet range.

To be blatantly honest, my poker history is that of an MTT player. I'm not that great of a ring game player so I'm trying to move up and play against better opponents after defeating the true micros.
 
Marcos mats

Marcos mats

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 7, 2017
Total posts
576
Chips
0
Firstly, a sincere thank you to those of you who offer advice.

The scenario:

I've seen a player at NL20 who 3bets an insane amount preflop. I've seen him show down any suited King, any off suit connecting cards, as well as decent hands. He/she seems very spewy after the flop as well. Funny thing is this player is a substantially profitable player.

Here is my strat to deal with him while I get my feet wet at a bit higher of level where the challenges of the game increase:

I'll open properly with a solid range. If he 3 bets me I'm gonna start stacking off light with 4-bet shoves (KJs+ as well as 66 and better). When I actually play a flop with him I'll try to blunt his experience and skill. The plan is to be very passive and let him c-bet. If I hit top pair with a good kicker OR have a draw with 9 or more true outs I'm gonna check-jam him.

I think this strat will have major variance. It seems +EV to me. And obviously I'll use this as a way to get my feet wet until I can spot a few more obvious leaks in the aforementioned villains game.

Any thoughts/comments/suggestions? I'd really appreciate any feedback at all. Even a simple "sounds good" as at the moment......to me....this seems like a decent strat.....but I know damned well there are many of you who have crushed a player like this before and have the knowledge/experience to pick my plan apart if you wish.

Again, a HUGE TY!!
In my opinion, you made a good game against this villain, but if I can give some tips sometimes at a table, it is better to stop playing some hands and wait a little longer to see the villain's game better and if you enter with it. Keep doing what you did be aggressive!
Ok.

We are together.
😎👊
 
0

0_5v

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Total posts
79
Chips
0
Hmm well I play a lot like your villain and I win, a lot, it is a way of testing the water of new players and pushing them to tilt.

I don't normally go beyond a 3 bet unless I'm well attached to my AK or AA or whatever. Also I'll only play that way with those who do show tilting tendency. So maybe just maybe, you are allowing yourself to look like a fish out of the water.

Best idea is just call, see the flop, then make decisions.

Also if I act like a fish on purpose, some find I'm a piranha.

Good luck.
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
The solution sounds wrong imo. Then again the strategy sounds very much same than so many of us at one point did ;) Your question is not getting too much answers because you essentially are asking ‘How do I 4bet?’, not only that but the question also includes first step question ‘How do I 3bet?’

Suggested solution, read 3bet \ 4bet strategy from at least 3 different sources, and then continue discussion from there.

Noob talk (because I’m noob): The shove range should be so that when he calls you have good equity, the call 3bet range should be that you have good equity against his range. In theory you need to have bluff shove range, but not sure do one need that in practice. Against good lag OOP you might actually need quite wide bluff shove range, IP I doubt you need quite that many. Oh your question is also difficult advanced level stuff.

But I just realized you are 4bet shoving and not raising or calling, so we probably can actually estimate if you make profit.

100bb deep, 3bet size 10bb, shove 97bb, pot 111.5bb

His 3bet range: { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo } [20%]
When you shove { 66+,AJs+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo} [9.2%], he needs 45% to call: {88+,AQs+,AQo+} [74combo], his orginal range was 266 combos, so he folds 72%

EVhecallsshove = 0.43*101.5-0.57*97 = -11.6
EV_4betshove = 0.72*11.5 – 0.28*11.6 = 5 !! Profit!!

In practice, after adaption to your action, his call AI range would be something like {TT+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+}
EVhecallsshove = 0.455*101.5-0.545*97 = -6.7, while he folds 82 combos, folds 69.8
EV_4betshove = 0.698*11.5 – 0.302*6.7 = 6 !! Profit!!

Ps. My math is always wrong.

So my guess is what happens, your 4bet bluff ratio is close to optimal 40/60 or something like that, only thing wrong is bet size and villain is just betting too large and too often so essentially making larger mistake than shoving AI is. However, he should adapt to your strategy super-fast (not 3betting that wide), like 2 orbits and after that you are on the drawing board again. Also if he 3bet smaller size this strat is probably break even at best.
 
Last edited:
S

SpeedBump621

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Total posts
44
Chips
0
In my opinion, you made a good game against this villain, but if I can give some tips sometimes at a table, it is better to stop playing some hands and wait a little longer to see the villain's game better and if you enter with it. Keep doing what you did be aggressive!
Ok.

We are together.
😎👊

Thank you!
 
S

SpeedBump621

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Total posts
44
Chips
0
Hmm well I play a lot like your villain and I win, a lot, it is a way of testing the water of new players and pushing them to tilt.

I don't normally go beyond a 3 bet unless I'm well attached to my AK or AA or whatever. Also I'll only play that way with those who do show tilting tendency. So maybe just maybe, you are allowing yourself to look like a fish out of the water.

Best idea is just call, see the flop, then make decisions.

Also if I act like a fish on purpose, some find I'm a piranha.

Good luck.

Interesting. Yes. Great observation. Most players at the table were indeed fish and this player whileholding A7, ended up stacking one. The flop came 77K, and a player with top pair called off 100BB.

Depending on the software the LAGG is using I'm sure he knows that, until recently, I've been a losing player at ring games and has me tagged as nitty fish. I'm trying to correct that now and to be honest I find it fascinating how players such as yourself play. I strive to be like you. Set up your table image and peddle the nuts!

Thank you for your advice. I suppose there will be a small amount of fold equity on the table for me to collect the first few hands I play against a person like yourself (using the 4bet stack off light strat) until you adjust. Then of course you'd tighten your range and smash me....until I adjust.

As a sort of fun side note: I've noticed that exceptional ring game players could publish a memo and hand it to each player at the table detailing how they play.....and at most tables....the exceptional player will win anyway.

So a question for yourself! What type of player do u really try to avoid other than an established tight reg who consistently shows a small win rate over multiple tables?
 
S

SpeedBump621

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Total posts
44
Chips
0
The solution sounds wrong imo. Then again the strategy sounds very much same than so many of us at one point did ;) Your question is not getting too much answers because you essentially are asking ‘How do I 4bet?’, not only that but the question also includes first step question ‘How do I 3bet?’

Suggested solution, read 3bet \ 4bet strategy from at least 3 different sources, and then continue discussion from there.

Noob talk (because I’m noob): The shove range should be so that when he calls you have good equity, the call 3bet range should be that you have good equity against his range. In theory you need to have bluff shove range, but not sure do one need that in practice. Against good lag OOP you might actually need quite wide bluff shove range, IP I doubt you need quite that many. Oh your question is also difficult advanced level stuff.

But I just realized you are 4bet shoving and not raising or calling, so we probably can actually estimate if you make profit.

100bb deep, 3bet size 10bb, shove 97bb, pot 111.5bb

His 3bet range: { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo } [20%]
When you shove { 66+,AJs+,KJs+,AJo+,KQo} [9.2%], he needs 45% to call: {88+,AQs+,AQo+} [74combo], his orginal range was 266 combos, so he folds 72%

EVhecallsshove = 0.43*101.5-0.57*97 = -11.6
EV_4betshove = 0.72*11.5 – 0.28*11.6 = 5 !! Profit!!

In practice, after adaption to your action, his call AI range would be something like {TT+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+}
EVhecallsshove = 0.455*101.5-0.545*97 = -6.7, while he folds 82 combos, folds 69.8
EV_4betshove = 0.698*11.5 – 0.302*6.7 = 6 !! Profit!!

Ps. My math is always wrong.

So my guess is what happens, your 4bet bluff ratio is close to optimal 40/60 or something like that, only thing wrong is bet size and villain is just betting too large and too often so essentially making larger mistake than shoving AI is. However, he should adapt to your strategy super-fast (not 3betting that wide), like 2 orbits and after that you are on the drawing board again. Also if he 3bet smaller size this strat is probably break even at best.

Ohhh this is some good stuff. I think my strat, when out of position against a player like the villain I've mentioned (when im OOP) will be to always open for 4x the BB and hope he at least 3x's that amount. Then I'll jam using the range I've detailed thinking I should have some decent fold equity

Then of course, when he adjusts I'll just start flatting a good amount with a range of premium broadways mixed with a few suited connectors and pairs (i'll have to decide which).

I did study a bit about polar and linear 3betting ranges. I think this villain was def polarized and at this session, at least, and his bluffing range was a bit out of line. I suppose I could be overthinking this a bit and "playing scared".

Gonna check for another couple of sources detailing 3/4betting. I really appreciate the time you put in to break down my strat as well as your advice.
 
0

0_5v

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Total posts
79
Chips
0
Who do I avoid? On tables like that the only one to avoid the the one who plays maybe once in 5 rounds. That one I would only go up against if my stack was at least 5 times his, and my cards were something like 5 7 off, or 3 5 suited. The reason for that is I expect him to have AA AK down to maybe QQ. But I will not over bet him just call as I want to see the flop, and be ready to fold at anytime. If he goes all-in out of position, FOLD. He is not looking at you, most likely he has seen a pattern in another player you missed.

He will wait to get your hard earned chips later, so be watchful.
 
S

SpeedBump621

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2017
Total posts
44
Chips
0
Ok so an update. I've come to love playing against maniacs. I've adjusted my strategy. Instead of always countering villain's aggression with lots of re-raises and aggressive play I've decided to just MOSTLY play solid starting hands and call down lightly.

Last night I left the table with almost 9 full buyins at the 10/20 level. It was almost too good to be true. I'll be staying at this level for a bit yet to build a larger bankroll but look forward to moving up and facing more difficult opponents.

I guess I was over-thinking stuff at times. The old rule that says tighten up against maniacs and loosen up against tight regs has proven to be true in this case.

I did 4bet shove my standard AK, 10's and better as well as jam a few boards when i was a clear favorite to win. I got lots of folds as the session went on. /shrug.

Thx again for the help guys. I always enjoy opinions as well as hearing about how you play in certain situations!
 
dealio96

dealio96

The LAG Monkeys
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Total posts
7,960
Awards
5
Chips
0
Its simple... When facing a LAG, just play as you were - 3bet/4bet light pre/ x/raising x/jamming hands that crush villains range post(depending on stack ratio when jamming) Pretty much rep a tight/taggish image and let villain be the aggressor in the hand(bc a LAG is always going to be aggressive) especially when you feel you're ahead in the hand.

Usually, a bad LAG will end up hanging themselves once you set the trap. A good LAG on the other hand, you're gonna have problems with. They can adapt/adjust to just about any table dynamics and are capable of making plays most people wouldn't even think of. Good LAGS are some of the best poker players out there(imo), so my suggestion to you would be... to become one ;)

Hope this helps out a bit:)
 
dealio96

dealio96

The LAG Monkeys
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Total posts
7,960
Awards
5
Chips
0
I've decided to just MOSTLY play solid starting hands


Also, I definitely wouldn't advise this strat. You're gonna get to ate up on the felts nowadays playing this 1980's play-style.

You need to loosen up a bit and start widening up your own preflop range, followed with a flop Cbet the majority of the time(no matter what you're holding), so you can have players going to poker forums, asking how to beat players like yourself, just like you did here:) Also, try to start playing your opponent, and not your cards.
 
D

davidhoyle107

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Total posts
182
Chips
0
I'm curious. What's your current bb/100 stat. If it's through the roof. By all means. Play lag. If it's like 3 or 6. I've got news for ya. A tag style will get you there a lot easier and you'll never have to 4 bet once in your life.
 
D

davidhoyle107

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Total posts
182
Chips
0
Also, I definitely wouldn't advise this strat. You're gonna get to ate up on the felts nowadays playing this 1980's play-style.

You need to loosen up a bit and start widening up your own preflop range, followed with a flop Cbet the majority of the time(no matter what you're holding), so you can have players going to poker forums, asking how to beat players like yourself, just like you did here:) Also, try to start playing your opponent, and not your cards.

This is cash games. In tournaments you're 1000% correct. But in cash games online it's not true. You get dealt thousands of hands on 10 hours. Live you get 100 in the same amount of time. A tag style can accomplish a positive win rate at any micro stakes.
 
C

chronical

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
Total posts
1,128
Awards
1
Chips
1
I've seen a player at NL20 who 3bets an insane amount preflop. I've seen him show down any suited King, any off suit connecting cards, as well as decent hands. He/she seems very spewy after the flop as well. Funny thing is this player is a substantially profitable player.

1. he seem like a fish in my oppinion. this does not mean that he is not going to win. fishy behavour does not mean it can not be proffitable(for exmpl small bal in touneys). after all you have to play agains your ops, and if the fold PRF or F to much you should float/3bet them more. You dont tight up agains a tight player.
2. as he is extremely loose you should understand that you are going to get in to wierd situations with TP weak kicker.
3. situation with KQs vs AA. you are not playing agins a HAND but agains a RANGE, just beacuse you hit his top does not mean you could not hit his bottom (would he be betting TT like that, what about ATo?gains most fo his range you have either 50/50 or you are dominating)
4. have fun :cool:
 
G

GWU73

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 18, 2012
Total posts
785
Chips
0
KQ is NOT a premium hand. it is marginal. His 4BET JAM, while not great, will rely on card removal, and is strictly a bluff (even if poster thinks its got value)

What hands that play post flop vs his shove are a likely behind?
- Maybe Suited connectors, or other broadway hands if opponent is REALLY BAD-
Basically every hand that gives action is either a small favorite, or a huge favorite.
 
D

davidhoyle107

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Total posts
182
Chips
0
Another option might be to tighten up your rfi range. He'll either stop 3 betting you, or 3 bet against a hand that justifies a 4 bet. Look at his fold to 3 and 4 bet stats. Look at his fold to c bet stats. Tell us those as well as your own vpip stats. That'll help a lot.
 
Top