Playing sets vs flush draws

A standard problem situation I find myself in is the following.

Let's say I'm playing a fairly straight-forward, tight-ish FR game. I open raise 3x with 99 from MP and button calls, all others fold.

Flop comes 9J2, with two diamonds.

I bet 3/4 pot and he calls.

Turn comes another diamond... Do I bet here or just give up? There is just so little information about his holdings that I have no clue. If I do check, oop, I feel he more than likely will bet (either as a complete bluff after floating my cbet (representing the flush), or for value with the completed flush). I might call his turn-bet, but may have to give up to a big bet on the river.

Even if the turn hadn't shown a diamond, and I bet again, he calls, and the river shows the diamond... Do I just stop betting here? Obviously, I understand that I put massive pressure betting if the flush doesn't hit (in which case villain fold on river bet), but it does often enough for it to be a very big problem for me.

I find this very annoying and difficult. Obviously, in position this would all be a lot easier as I would likely donkbet or check-raise the flop, with decent bets trying to get my money in right there and then.

Bet again pretty much every-time imo, a FD is just part of his range for calling the flop.

Good players will know better than to call 3/4 PSBs with FDs so depending on whether the villain is a fishy calling station type will probably influence how likely they are to be calling with FD.

If he did make a flush on the turn then you still have good pot equity and if he has something else, like an overpair or AJ, then you can probably still extract value with another bet.

micromachine said:

Bet again pretty much every-time imo, a FD is just part of his range for calling the flop.

Good players will know better than to call 3/4 PSBs with FDs so depending on whether the villain is a fishy calling station type will probably influence how likely they are to be calling with FD.

If he did make a flush on the turn then you still have good pot equity and if he has something else, like an overpair or AJ, then you can probably still extract value with another bet.

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Thanks for that!

About your first comment, it just seems that even some good players don't fold their FDs despite a 3/4 pot bet. I suppose it may matter what my image is at the table too - if I have been losing a lot of pots then they are more inclined to call due to implied odds.

And for your last comment, you are basically saying in this situation I will go better from betting despite an obvious flush on the board? Do I fold to a raise? And on the river, do I bet again? Fold to a raise?

(I understand this is villain dependent but lets just say it's an average but solid, typical TAG).

If you are raised on the turn he probably does have a flush. But still bet/folding the turn is better than check/calling or check/folding. You are out of position and you need to take the initiative. Someone on here once told me that bet/fold is your friend at the micros, and that's very true!

I would bet the turn and consider folding to a raise, depending on how big it is. If it's not huge you may be able to call looking to improve on the river.

micromachine said:

If you are raised on the turn he probably does have a flush. But still bet/folding the turn is better than check/calling or check/folding. You are out of position and you need to take the initiative. Someone on here once told me that bet/fold is your friend at the micros, and that's very true!

I would bet the turn and consider folding to a raise, depending on how big it is. If it's not huge you may be able to call looking to improve on the river.

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Thanks for the advice. And if I don't improve on the river, do I bet again? Or check/fold check/call.

Depends how much is left in our stacks compared to how big the pot is.

As it wasn't a 3bet pot there is probably still room for a bet/fold on the river, can do a small value bet like 1/3-1/2 pot, which might get called by weaker hands.

micromachine said:

Good players will know better than to call 3/4 PSBs with FDs so depending on whether the villain is a fishy calling station type will probably influence how likely they are to be calling with FD.

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Mucking a flush draw otf ip is rather uncommon for good players even when the cbet is ¾pot. It depends on a few things ofc, and flush draws aren't created equally (consider holding AcJc on a KcTc4d flop versus holding 5s4s on a KsKhQs flop) but there are numerous situations like this where you won't need a flush (or even a showdown) to win the hand and you'll have other ways to improve as well with backdoor or gutshot straights, overcards, etc.

micromachine said:

Someone on here once told me that bet/fold is your friend at the micros, and that's very true!

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Indeed. Good advice to people in the micros as they'll often be up against players who call rather light and raise rather tight.

Really good advice from the replies here. I usually find myself in these types of situations and usually just bet on the turn depending on the stack sizes. Its tough to get in a check call or check fold position because you will face the same situation on the river when you dont approve.

Betting here will get him to call, fold, or raise. Depending on the stack sizes, if he raises you could still call and then get value on the river. If he calls, then you could slow down or bet small like someone said and get paid off against a pair/two pair type of hand.

Someone on here once told me that bet/fold is your friend at the micros, and that's very true!
Indeed. Good advice to people in the micros as they'll often be up against players who call rather light and raise rather tight.

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I find this an interesting topic in itself. I used to bet/fold a lot more than I do now, thinking I was extracting the info I needed to fold. Overall though I think bet/folding is normally wrong. You are paying with the intention of folding. If you can think one step ahead you can save yourself money. Try checking and then determining a check/c/r/f. I know it puts you in a harder spot, but I think if you can make the right choice after checking you will save money.

ddeely1 said:

I find this an interesting topic in itself. I used to bet/fold a lot more than I do now, thinking I was extracting the info I needed to fold. Overall though I think bet/folding is normally wrong. You are paying with the intention of folding. If you can think one step ahead you can save yourself money. Try checking and then determining a check/c/r/f. I know it puts you in a harder spot, but I think if you can make the right choice after checking you will save money.

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Bet/folding for the purpose of extracting info is faulty logic, yes, but in general the more passive a game is overall the more you're going to find yourself betting for value and folding to raises. Many players down in the micros have AFs < 1, fairly wide gaps between vpip and pfr, etc, and they often tend to call in various spots with a larger percentage of their range than what will bet themselves if checked to (in fact you could argue that the single biggest leak of the weakest players online poker has to offer is that they call too much). Again, I'm speaking very generally and there are ofc players down there who have pretty much the exact opposite profile, but it's true those games are on average more passive than at higher limits.

DunningKruger said:

Bet/folding for the purpose of extracting info is faulty logic, yes, but in general the more passive a game is overall the more you're going to find yourself betting for value and folding to raises.

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Exactly, bet/folding should be betting for the right reasons (value or bluff) and folding if raised and it becomes obvious you're beaten...not betting with the intention of folding or betting to gain info.

this situation is indeed very troublesome and a reraise on the turn wont neccesarily indicate a flush , it may be a bluff,semibluff,unexpected 2 pair,slowplay overpair or w/e , not every player will play his hand the same way,

its pretty hard to fold a set against a suspected flush because there is only
one hand that beats you so the odds are in your favor also a player will usually
reraise with a hand when he is afraid of a showdown , flush isnt that kind of hand.

Imo i would either all in or overbet the pot on flop with the intention to go all in on turn or bet 30% of pot and if a flush is shown on turn i would continue with a blocking bet around 1/4 or 1/5 of the pot with intention to call a reraise and make a blocking bet on river aswell , ofc it depends on your position this will work
if you are OOP but if you have position you can either check behind and call a raise on river or reraise the turn and that would be enough to tell you where you stand.

You will make things very hard on later streets if you bet 3/4 of the pot when you have a good hand , also you will get many players fold especially
those who would otherwise call with a bluffcatcher hand , when someone see a 3/4 bet he knows he will have to make very tough decisions if he calls you so its harder to trap.

Overall you have to decide early in a hand what pot you want to play on river , if you opt for a big pot on river then you shouldnt ever give up , if you suspect
a dangerous draw or something then just keep the pot small with small bets

It would probably be worth it to look at an example opponent's range on the turn to see how often they have a flush that got there, how often they have a single pair (how often that pair has a single diamond) and so on. This should put things in perspective on why most people here are suggesting betting the turn in the example you gave.

ddeely1 said:

I find this an interesting topic in itself. I used to bet/fold a lot more than I do now, thinking I was extracting the info I needed to fold. Overall though I think bet/folding is normally wrong. You are paying with the intention of folding. If you can think one step ahead you can save yourself money. Try checking and then determining a check/c/r/f. I know it puts you in a harder spot, but I think if you can make the right choice after checking you will save money.

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If I check first and he will most probably bet for a good amount for any reason, so how can I determine a check/c/r/f? I would rather bet a relatively small amount.