Originally Posted by Stu_Ungar
Going off at a tangent but the reason being OOP sucks is the structure of the game.
If we invented a new form of poker whereby the game were HU and the positon never changed (so the guy OOP was always OOP and the guy IP was always IP) AND we cloned Phil Ivey so he could play himself.
The Phil Ivey IP would always beat the PI OOP.
Mathematically here is why.
Lets assume PI always makes a pot sized bet
on the flop the pot is (p)
OOP makes a pot sized raise. So he bets (p) to win (p) so he has to be correct 50% of the time to win. (be correct means he has the best hand more than 50% of the time and then dosent bet if his opponent spikes on a later street.. it means he puts his opponent on a range thats accurate enough that when he bets to collect dead money, he is correct on that range more than 50% of the time, or it means that when he bets to set up a bluff on later streets again he knows that bluff will work more than 50% of the time).
So PI bets (p) into (p)
Now the action is on IP Phil Ivey The pot is now (2p) and he has to call (p) to continue. Obviously he only continues if he has some plan to win.
IP he only needs to be correct 33% of the time.
So not only does PI need a slightly stronger range OOP than IP, he also needs to make decisions that are more often correct than he does when sat IP AND he has to do that with less information.
So to win OOP you need a bigger edge than you do to play IP.
This translates to 2 things.
1.) OOP cards matter more than IP
2.) You need to be better than your opponent to play OOP than IP (better not roughly equal)
I wouldn't say this is off tangent at all, I think it goes right to the heart of the matter.
There are 3 advantages to be gained in NLHE; card advantage, positional advantage and skill advantage.
If I were to play, say WV he would have a strong skill advantage so the only way I could hope to compete is make sure I had advantages in the other 2. Since most poker players are long term losers by definition they are bad. Therefore the best way for bad players to neutralize their poor skill is to not play out of position and to make sure they only play strong starting hands.
I don't really know exactly what ****tail of mental abilities and personalitiy traits are required to be a great poker player, although obviously some math skills, logical reasoning, willingness to take risk, bravado and dissimulation are in that mix. I think someone like me who has some but not all of those traits can compensate by playing only strong hands and not playing out of position.
I think the truth is that there are way
more players like me than WV Hillbilly, Owen Gaines, Dusty Schmidt, Tom Dwan or Phil Ivey.
I advocate folding hands like 77, AQ, KQs, etc from EP for any player who is a struggling or novice player. By avoiding marginal situations where your ability to quickly put villain on a range, calculate your equity against that assumed range and then make the best possible assumption the neophyte poker player eliminates the possibilty of making a huge and costly mistake.
I think I am very good at putting villains on range of hands and fairly good at making assumptions about how they will react to the board based on that assumption but for whatever reason I think when it comes time to making the best possible decision my inputs get crossed and I not only often fail to make the best decision, I in fact make the worst
Will I ever get better? I don't know. I still lack a lot of confidence in my game and am extremely risk averse, however I have figured out a style which consistently beats 2nl for 3BB/100 with a huge sample to prove it. Perhaps 3BB/100 is somewhat pathetic at 2nl but I think I will be able to replicate that success for the next few limits once my bankroll gets there. At some point I will hit a wall where I can no longer consistently show a profit because my style will be too predicatable and exploitable. At that point I will either need to adapt or stay stuck in the micros. I am not afraid of either possiblity, I enjoy grinding because I think it creates tremendous emotional discipline for me, only a few short months ago I was a tilt monster but now I can get my Aces cracked twice in a row and just keep grinding.
MY advice may be 'stupid' for some but I think for others I think it could possibly be sage indeed.
Sorry for the hijack, I read the OP and instantly saw that playing Out of Position was the problem. That riffed into 77's equity vs a range of hands on a drawy board. I tried to steer it back to talking about positonal play. Fortunately Stu did a way better job articulating that point.