Is playing position still good EV?

I play the micros and it seems when you play mid pos, with only 2 players ahead of you they always think youre trying to steal their blinds and re-raise you, either that or they know you are playing pos and expect you to have a weak hand and try to bluff you off of it.

It happens so much that Ive almost given up playing this pos without a great hand.

It seems more people fold from an UTG raise, or a re-raise preflop now days raise than a raise from this pos.

I usually let them get away with it a cpl times. Once you have enough info on villain (ex. 3b is 8+), then you can 4b wider. Keep playing your position. Them 3b'ing oop constantly isn't going to be profitable unless you're folding all the time.

I'm confused by the premise of this question. But YES, emphatically Yes!, play is determined a ton by position as well as other exploitable information.

Its always been this way, and always will be. Don't ever underestimate the merit of table position.


For instance, when UTG open raises, if they are a decent player they almost always have the very tippy top of their hand range, if they are opening a wide range here then we can exploit them IP every hand until they adjust.


We haffa have a tighter range when we are oop, so that when we do get called or 3bet by villains IP we can play our hand profitably. Using HUD stats is by far the easiest tool to assess hand ranges as well as tendencies.

ovitoo said:

I usually let them get away with it a cpl times. Once you have enough info on villain (ex. 3b is 8+), then you can 4b wider. Keep playing your position. Them 3b'ing oop constantly isn't going to be profitable unless you're folding all the time.

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Exactly this ^

If you only have the blinds to act behind you (button), then this is late position not mid., even though the blinds act after you. Obv in all subsequent rounds you act last (late pos)
As others have said, you can exploit those that you have position on and so position is 'still' important

ovitoo said:

I usually let them get away with it a cpl times. Once you have enough info on villain (ex. 3b is 8+), then you can 4b wider. Keep playing your position. Them 3b'ing oop constantly isn't going to be profitable unless you're folding all the time.

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Well, yes and no. If we have a decent hand sample then we can start to gauge a villains oop 3bet range (like 1K+ as a minimum-with some certainty). But i think its an oversimplification to suggest 'letting them get away [w/ it] couple of times', is any determining factor. Not that you are saying that though; with enough info then yes of course.


For the micros all we need to do is to play simple and str8 forward, ppl don't think correctly enough to keep from making horrendous decisions. If we stick to a solid hand range, and then on rare occasion balance it a bit, we are gonna be +EV. There really is no need to get overly fancy when we're oop.

taaron said:

Well, yes and no. If we have a decent hand sample then we can start to gauge a villains oop 3bet range (like 1K+ as a minimum-with some certainty). But i think its an oversimplification to suggest 'letting them get away [w/ it] couple of times', is any determining factor. Not that you are saying that though; with enough info then yes of course.


For the micros all we need to do is to play simple and str8 forward, ppl don't think correctly enough to keep from making horrendous decisions. If we stick to a solid hand range, and then on rare occasion balance it a bit, we are gonna be +EV. There really is no need to get overly fancy when we're oop.

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My analysis was simple. If you're being 3b too often, widen your 4b's. Your "play simple and straight-forward" and "no need to get fancy when we're oop" comments are pretty irrelevant itt. For one, op isn't asking for help when he is oop. And two, tho you're right about playing ABC poker at micros, that has little to do with lp opening ranges. The "letting them get away with it" comment was obv referring to a vil I don't already have that info on.

You did say you were confused about OP's question so I assume that's why your tips are all over the place.

Playing IP beats the alternative all to hell.

ovitoo said:

My analysis was simple. If you're being 3b too often, widen your 4b's. Your "play simple and straight-forward" and "no need to get fancy when we're oop" comments are pretty irrelevant itt. For one, op isn't asking for help when he is oop. And two, tho you're right about playing ABC poker at micros, that has little to do with lp opening ranges. The "letting them get away with it" comment was obv referring to a vil I don't already have that info on.

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Bold= thats exactly what OP is asking about. lol.

playing hands oop.

MP is not CO or BTN. Just because someone has a 3bet stat at 8% (sb-utg) does not mean they are making too many 3bets is all I'm trying to clarify. It is 100% all about sample size. There is no way we should be 4betting light unless we have a clear info that villain is 3bet stealing too much.
And thus why our hand range when oop in reference to the table as a whole is so important.

Pretty sure the typo from op is "mid pos" and not EVERYTHING else he posted.
See: "...2 players ahead of you they always think youre trying to steal THEIR blinds" or maybe the title "Is playing position still good EV?"

And yes, sample size is very important. That doesn't mean you let someone 3b you 80-100% and you just twiddle your thumbs until you've played 1k hands. Be real.

ovitoo said:

And yes, sample size is very important. That doesn't mean you let someone 3b you 80-100% and you just twiddle your thumbs until you've played 1k hands. Be real.

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Totally agree with this. Ye i mean we need to call and or 4bet a tad lighter if its obvious. lol deffo don't need to have a massive sample, but in the sense of giving advice to a beginner its just much better to play a strong MP range. So we can play back if villains are exploiting a (or perceived) weakness.

It seemed like a very beginner type of question from OP(context wise).
But from a slightly more advanced standpoint ye 4bets can be clutch.

position is more important than your hole-cards themselves in many situations.

Remember that sometimes position is more important than the cards you're holding.