Playing live - losing money

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AcesFullOfDonks

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So, I've just got back from my local casino. It certainly didn't go as I expected it to. Lowest stake NLHE cash game was what I was looking to play. The blinds were 1/1. I bought in for 100BB at a FR game.
I went into this game looking to translate what I'd learnt playing online poker (position, tight PF play, value betting made hands etc.) to a live scenario. It didn't work at all.
I played tight PF and tried to play in position. It appeared that this would be the optimal strategy after seeing some of these players play the way they did - i.e. limpy and OOP with marginal hands.
So I patiently sat and waited for some playable cards to fall my way. First hand I played was pocket fours from middle position, I open raised 3xBB, four callers - CO, BTN, SB, BB. Flop was all over cards with straight and flush possibilities, happily checked this down and folded. Not a problem, let everyone else battle each other for that pot as there would be many other pots to play.
Second hand:
By this point, I'd noticed a few of these players had deeper stacks than myself and wanted to see flops, regardless of position or pot size.
I'm UTG with KK. Open raise to 10xBB for value as I was expecting at least one call. Two calls, flop comes down with 3 under cards, no obvious draws. Bet half pot to keep worse hands in. Everyone folds.
I feel like I lost a ton of value with this hand. However, I didn't want to just check, as I was wary these players would check behind and chase a draw. They were very willing to call draws all the way down to the river, often hitting. So I bet for value, only to see folds. I guess I could see it as a win as my hand won the pot, but I feel I lost value. Did I? Did I not?

Third hand:
Sat in the BB with 66, UTG is short stacked and shoves for around 12xBB. One caller. One re-raise. I folded my 66 here for numerous reasons.
1. I was OOP to everyone in the hand with an under pair.
2. The raise was a grossly sized bet at around 60BB but I knew this was coming from an aggrotard player who loved to play any two over cards. Could have had any two broadway. At best I imagined it being a coin flip, so I folded. Especially since UTG was also all in.
3. Long story short, I flopped a set after folding and would have beaten the aggrotard for a big pot when he reraised with AJo.
Unlucky? Or should I have called the huge reraise?

Another hand:
Sat UTG (yes, again OOP, that was the theme of the night - collect great cards UTG). Look down at pocket Jacks, raise to 10xBB, get reraised by a fairly decent player in the CO. I had his 3bet range as the top 5-6%(ish?) of hands. I folded.
Was I right to fold? Playing JJ OOP with big stacks didn't feel like a good play to me. If I was short stacked I obviously would have shoved, but we were both 120ish BB deep. Anyway he told me he had QQ, fair play if he did. However, was folding the correct play had I never found out what he was holding?

One more situation which caught me unaware was when I was on the BTN I was dealt TT. UTG open limped, 3 more callers. I attempted to isolate as I had position (successfully for once!) UTG calls and the player in the CO calls. Flop came down AQ9, all clubs. I checked back the flop because I knew that these players would play any weak Ace or Queen.
On the turn I was forced to dump my hand when UTG player led for a pot sized bet.

Should I have opened up my range a bit more? I was playing very much like a NIT because of the players at the table. What could I have done differently? Also limp IP with with suited connectors?

I appreciate any answers/advice. Please don't come onto this post just to call me a fish etc. I'm working hard to improve my game.
 
thetick33

thetick33

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this is all over the place and no not calling you a fish....

but the biggest thing is in your planning. You brought in 100.00 after awhile you notice some guys have more money? That to me is first thing I notice when sitting down. Any table i sum up by stacks they are playing ultimately i feel is my money lol.

You said had a very open board of people in how they bet etc.. You need a plan for that. U decide im gonna show these guys im a rock.....

first thing you do any play is raise no trapping announcing hey guys im a rock but I got the goods etc..

U have to evaluate your opponents

they are loose? are they a show off? are they serious care about the money?show off for a girl etc.. how do they dress shoes watch etc..

i go sit live i learn the players than trap and play outside their game takes about an hour to read everyone know when they will lay down etc.. how to evaluate why they are there

so your strategy was poor but if you start playing these guys regular? maybe you can flip the table on them

I am not a proponent on raising from any position with pairs. Unless is queens or above in ring or table has figured you out then you make adjustments

If people dont know me im gonna trap

if they do know me im gonna open game a lot and mix it up


also this is first time live?

dont sweat it too much lol you play sports? did in first at bat hit a home run?

doubtful lol so did you quit give up? beat yourself up?

U win in poker online? is no different in life. Is just got to get comfortable with how you work your game. If it works stick to it. if not work on it till it does:)

i think you beat yourself up here too much id not play the same but you stuck to your learning so you are still ahead more than would have probably lost:)
 
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ranma187

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no need to raise from mid position with 4s. This is just one live session, Donks will sometimes hardly pay you off unless they get a piece of the flop themselves. It's normal variance. KK's and AA's aren't going to generate a huge pot every time. Play such strong hand less aggressive at first. only raise 2.5 the BB's. You want more people to call your raise while you dominate them with your range. One session is just a small sample of the long run.
 
quick

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First time I played live it went bad. Next few times have been decent. Although I've often found myself in spots where I'm up a lot, get into 1 or 2 tricky hands, end up losing a bunch of profit at end of night.

Overall your experience looks pretty standard. Definitely don't check back hands like KK on even dry boards, your bet there was fine.

Another poster said only raise 2.5 the BBs with strong hands. Yeah don't do that live. 1.) If you bet less when you hold premiums at least 1 player will eventually notice and start folding and 2.) if you bet so small live you';ll get half the table or more seeing a flop and suddenly your AA is beat by 27o.

Def want to be betting at bare minimum 3-4 x the BB, standard where I play seems to be around just around 4-7x the BB, sometimes more. I often see people opening 1/2 live with like $10 to go and getting 4-6 callers. But that's def tricky to get used to coming from online, these inflated bets.
 
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ranma187

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I adjusted to raising 2.5 the BB because even when I raise 4 or 5 times the BB most of the people will call anyway, in my situation it saves me money. most flops I will have to fold, but when my hand hits. the more the merrier.
 
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AcesFullOfDonks

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So, from what I can tell, playing live I should be opening my premiums large. Say 5-10xBB? More so maybe? People were calling with garbage and catching the flop, i.e. Q7o in the SB when I opened in MP or UTG. Also Ranma, if I aren't opening with pocket 4s here, hoping to set mine, what should I have been doing? Folding or limping and hoping to catch the flop? And hoping I aren't raised?
I thought my tight image (which was mentioned at the table every time I raised a hand, only to get called anyway) would have been taken into account but it seems a fit or fold style was adopted at this table.
 
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ranma187

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small pairs are looking to flop sets. Which happens on average 7 to 1. limp calling is probably the best with small and medium pairs. if in a tournament by all means raise with a 10-15 bb stack and get heads up. Cash is way different. Bigger pairs is a different story. in a 1/2 game, i can call a raise of around 10-13 dollars with a small or medium pair. if someone raises 15 or more it's a fold, unless more people have called... Pot odds.
 
quick

quick

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I adjusted to raising 2.5 the BB because even when I raise 4 or 5 times the BB most of the people will call anyway, in my situation it saves me money. most flops I will have to fold, but when my hand hits. the more the merrier.

So when you hit you're building smaller pots and instead of getting 5 players in the flop you now have the entire table so the guy with 59o flops his two pair on a 5A9 board and you're behind by a mile.

One thing I learned real quick live was to adjust my openings to the table's flow. Some tables are only betting 3x BB to open, some are opening a lot more. I model my open size to that. If players are happily willing to call a 5x pre flop raise from any position why not maximize the amount you're winning?



So, from what I can tell, playing live I should be opening my premiums large. Say 5-10xBB? More so maybe? People were calling with garbage and catching the flop, i.e. Q7o in the SB when I opened in MP or UTG. Also Ranma, if I aren't opening with pocket 4s here, hoping to set mine, what should I have been doing? Folding or limping and hoping to catch the flop? And hoping I aren't raised?
I thought my tight image (which was mentioned at the table every time I raised a hand, only to get called anyway) would have been taken into account but it seems a fit or fold style was adopted at this table.

I've found so far it seems good to adjust your opening bets to the table flow. If the table seems to be betting X than go with it. What I found was nice about this is that LP good players can set the PFR to whatever I want, so if there's a weak 2-3x PFR standard at my table , I can open from say the button with 5-6x and do well. If they're willing to call bigger raises, I'm doing it and this is coming from someone who only recently made the move to more live play.

Good observation about people playing with junk, there's a bunch of aggro regs at my room, I've watched them, junk like Q7 are hands they're making pots like $30 to go preflop with or even the bad "just for fun" folks, it's amazing how aggro some people are.

Set mining live I found is a little less clear cut to me than online set mining. For example if I'm in LP , I have the ability to wait and see what everyone else does. If second to act makes it $12 to go and by the time it reaches me like 4 players have called that bet, I only have to pay $12 into a pot that's around $50 odd bucks, I hit that 4 on the flop and it's not a made flush or st8 board, I know someone is firing a bet in there, I can raise them like 3-4x or just shove and make bank. Now these aren't perfect odds but live you WILL have folks calling these 5-10x pre flop raises with shit like Q7o which makes implied odds to me HUGE when you hit a set. Even if you get someone who gets in there with AA and you land a set of 4s, you're pretty much going to make money with no effort here lots of the times. And hey if you miss the set, just check it down or fold. Don't be the hero who tries to steal that pot and get called down by a guy with Q7 who turns his Q.

As for limping small PPs, I'll take that over my above example, it's a super cheap way to set mine and is usually well hidden.

And besides most 1/2 live players aren't paying attention anyways. Like you I regularly have a player or 3 mention how tight I seem and at least one of them STILL is willing to stack off against me with a pair! I had someone verbally go into detail about a tell I had when a card hit, the other guy STILL called me all in with a paired up Ace vs my quads (he told me after the hand to be polite, but still the other player was oblivious to any tell I might have given off). At least 3 players at my table other night had me read like a book and I still could play pretty basic ABC poker against the other 6 players and make some profits. Just occasionally get "caught" playing a junk hand whether or not you win the hand and people will mark you as not as tight as they assumed.
 
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