Playing `less experienced` players???

Hello all.

Hope you are all well.

I`ve started off the year playing some `lower limit` MTT/ SNG`s.

Would you think that it would be fair to say that when playing `less experienced` players you need to play your cards until you get down to the final 10%?

I say this because I have found myself trying to get these guys off what was obviously a draw, but they still call.

I know a lot of you will say you want them to put their money in when you are ahead, but that, to an extent, depends on what stage of the tourny u r at.

If you are in the early stages of a tourny I am happy giving them even money to chase a 5:1 flush. However, when someone can take 1/2 your stack in the later stages of the tourny and effectivly blow your chances of winning the tourny it is different.

How do you play against these ppl? I have been in a game where I called with A10. Flop 10s, 4d, 7h. I raise size of pot. I get a caller. Q on turn. He goes all in. I know he has a Q. I fold and yes, he shows Qs2d. The only good news here is that they are so stupid with there bets that as soon as they catch they go all in.

So, again, how do you counter this kind of play? It is near impossible to get a read on them, because truth be known, they don`t know what they are doing. Every two sooted cards they will call with, and if one of their suite hits the flop they think they are on a flush draw!!!

So, I have a choice, get some advice or go back up to higher stake!!!

***update***

($6 buy in freezeout - 658 players) The same game I got pocket AKd. Raised 4 times bb. (I`m on 5000 chips) next guy goes all-in with his final 2300. then I face an all in from a guy with 5500 chips. Normally I would fold here, but I push all in. I felt chancing a treble up with AKs is worth it.

1st guy shows JJ, other guy shows QQ. I catch A on flop and take pot down. I`m now in a decent position.

So, the question. If I was in higher limit game I would start to steal. Here, I`m not sure. How would you guys play it? Tighten up or loosen up?

Play tight until you`re close to the bubble, then start stealing. Inexperienced players usually get very scared of going out just before they are ITM, because it`s not something they have often achieved.

More generally:

There is little point in trying to bluff weak players, they will call if they have caught any part of the flop. There is no need to bluff anyway. You can play premium hands only and they will not catch on because they are too busy playing their own cards to make notes on you.

The flush draw thing is a big problem at this level. Weak players tend to have an exaggerated love of flushes and will chase whatever you do. Forget about trying to price them out of the pot - they often don`t understand pot odds. I have myself been busted out of more than one tourney by an idiot who called my big bets and showed down a flush that I was convinced he couldn`t have because he hadn`t had the odds to draw to it. I have now realised that, whatever the betting, you need to be very wary if a third suited card falls on turn or river.

You can turn this to your advantage if you have a bigger flush or a full house. At this level, people will cheerfully go all-in or call your all-in with an 8 or 9-high flush. They are convinced this is an invincible hand, and will not seriously consider that you could have the Ace or King. Nor do they understand the threat of a paired board.

Egon Towst said:

More generally:

There is little point in trying to bluff weak players, they will call if they have caught any part of the flop. There is no need to bluff anyway. You can play premium hands only and they will not catch on because they are too busy playing their own cards to make notes on you.

The flush draw thing is a big problem at this level. Weak players tend to have an exaggerated love of flushes and will chase whatever you do. Forget about trying to price them out of the pot - they often don`t understand pot odds. I have myself been busted out of more than one tourney by an idiot who called my big bets and showed down a flush that I was convinced he couldn`t have because he hadn`t had the odds to draw to it. I have now realised that, whatever the betting, you need to be very wary if a third suited card falls on turn or river.

You can turn this to your advantage if you have a bigger flush or a full house. At this level, people will cheerfully go all-in or call your all-in with an 8 or 9-high flush. They are convinced this is an invincible hand, and will not seriously consider that you could have the Ace or King. Nor do they understand the threat of a paired board.

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I agree with all of what u say m8. The issue, however, is what do u do when u know they are on a draw. R u suggesting it makes more sense to give them a free card? If they hit u have lost less. Or, on the other hand, do u go all in and get the most you can out of it and accept that from time to time they will hit?

I`ll put in a reasonable-size bet, in the knowledge that they will most likely not make their draw, and therefore it is to my advantage to grow the pot.

What I won`t do is to bet pot-size or larger if that involves committing a potentially crippling part of my stack. In a cash game, I would do so every time in order to price out the draw but, as you have correctly identified, in a muppet-level tourney you will not price them out because they won`t give it up and, if they get lucky, you stand to be taking an early bath.

I play low limits all the time. I play semi-loose preflop and extremely tight after the flop until my stack is around 5x BB. When you hit a hand you'll most likley be against an extremely agrressive player or a calling station. If you have an awsome hand just keep calling the aggrissive guy and bet 1/2 pot to the calling station. If you have a pretty weak hand after the flop then fold unless its a minimum bet. These guys can read you a little too so switch from aggrissive to passive every once in a while.

You dont need a big stack to make it to the end just worry about keeping around the average stack. I've sat on a short stack most of the way through the tourney and finished top five.

I have been pretty successful playing like this and have pretty consistant with my style. I've actually been asked if I was a bot before but keep scoring the $$$.

Im going to assume that you have some experience playing some of the higher buy-ins Ronald ?

To be honest though, I cant see a huge difference in the play in a $6 tourney or an $80 tourney, especially after the first 90 mins when most of the dead money feeds the sharks.

Ive played the $215 buy-in Sunday million on Stars only the once, and i have to say the play was OMG awful. Basically follow basic strategy for the first hour and play your big hands for value, fold everything else. "Plays" on your opponents work better towards the latter stages of MTT's, read the HoH series if you havnt already.

The average stack is usually just something to keep in mind, you shouldnt really be overly concerned about it until your approaching the final table, Im usually more concerned about my M (HoH), table image, opponents table image, who i can steal off, who i cant etc.

Ronaldadio said:

I agree with all of what u say m8. The issue, however, is what do u do when u know they are on a draw. R u suggesting it makes more sense to give them a free card? If they hit u have lost less. Or, on the other hand, do u go all in and get the most you can out of it and accept that from time to time they will hit?

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Oh man, this has been my quandary for months! All I can do is play my A game and keep my fingers crossed that one of these 'inexperienced' players won't suck out on me. I try to ID them early on and steer clear, but it is frustrating to feel like not all of us are playing by the same rules!

As per usual Tenbob is spot on. 1st hour emphasize playing BIG hands only unless you have a good read on someone you can isolate. I have found the level of play at the lower buy in Deep Stack Tourneys on Full Tilt to be at least marginally better in the 1st hour, plus you have enough chips to make a mistake or 2 without crippling yourself.

i would chase a flush draw, if i had a good lead, but not if it could hurt me.
i personaly dont like to go to showdown, so if i hit a nice flop, im gonna make you pay, to chase, allin on the river.

ive been bluffed out of many pots, with garbage, so you can bet your bankroll, if i know you like to bluff, im gonna chase, and P you off. lol

Again, I agree!!!

I would also suggest that these `inexperienced` guys rarely try to bluff u out of pots, when they are on a similar stack. What I love is getting to a table when one of the guys has a massive chip lead (he probably muffed it or was against some poor players) The guys with the chip lead in these tournys are almost `double up machines` for the better players.

I think the general opinion is TAG + controling pot size - if that is possible!!!

and as if to back up what I say, this is how I went out in a freeroll!!!

I should not have gone all in after the flop, but it can get to you sometimes!!! U can`t shake them off pre flop - do u need to go all in ???

** Game ID 658863496 starting - 2007-01-06 19:42:13
** $1500 Freeroll[1137242]:Table 179 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (150.00|300.00 No Limit - MTT) real money
- chips_wins sitting in seat 1 with $24624.39
- kimslagelse sitting in seat 3 with $5300.00
- ronaldadio sitting in seat 4 with $2745.00
- jockswild sitting in seat 5 with $14789.98
- OLDRIVER sitting in seat 6 with $1070.00 [Sitting out]
- Jackanory sitting in seat 7 with $2480.00
- late20 sitting in seat 8 with $5233.87 [Dealer]
- __viktor sitting in seat 9 with $1020.00
- boy-ferret sitting in seat 10 with $1115.00
__viktor posted the small blind - $75.00
boy-ferret posted the big blind - $150.00
** Dealing card to ronaldadio: Queen of Diamonds, Ace of Hearts
chips_wins called - $150.00
kimslagelse called - $150.00
ronaldadio raised - $600.00
jockswild folded
OLDRIVER folded
Jackanory folded
late20 folded
__viktor folded
boy-ferret folded
chips_wins called - $600.00
kimslagelse called - $600.00
** Dealing the flop: 7 of Spades, 5 of Clubs, 6 of Diamonds
chips_wins checked
kimslagelse checked
ronaldadio went all-in - $2145.00
chips_wins called - $2145.00
kimslagelse folded
chips_wins shows: 10 of Diamonds, 7 of Hearts
** Dealing the turn: King of Spades
** Dealing the river: 8 of Diamonds
chips_wins wins $6315.00 from the main pot

Besides my live league games, I play low level SNGs. I know it's not the same as MTTs, but I have learned a few things. I did an analysis of my last 50 SNGs and for my first 30, I was only ITM 3 times.

Over my last 20, I have been in the money 8 times (net profit of $46).

I have learned that I play REALLY Tight Passive until the first 2-4 people knock themselves out. I limp in w/ AA : KK unless I'm in last position. Most of the time, early on, if I make a medium size bet, I get reraised or get an all-in. Usually a fish who sees the extra money on the table and wants to to steal the blinds + the raises. Even w/ AA or KK, I can't go all-in preflop early on. So instead of giving away my 3-5X blind bets - I just limp in and see what happens. If I catch the flop - either a set or a low board - then I'll put a decent bet in. Again - I won't put myself in critical status unless I have the nuts. I fold a lot of better hands because of so many people chasing draws.

So what I do is play that way and bet for value - stay ahead of the blinds - and let the action happen. If I can get to the last 4 or 5 w/ 1500-1600 (starting chips : 1500) then I am where I expect. Sometimes I'll have more if I catch the nuts on a hand and then I put pressure on.

Once you get to that level, then you can start playing the people. Then I turn into TAG. I will start betting on my hands and steal blinds. But only if I have a good hand that I can fire back if reraised. Only premium hands. Fold everything else. PATIENCE - sooner or later, one of the others will get bored, go on tilt, or catch a JJ and go all-in and lose out to the chip leader. Then I'm ITM and I'll play LAG. Only 3 people, I play any A5 or higher and put pressure on. That doesn't mean all-in on an A5 - maybe 1 or 2X blinds. If reraised I fold. I also do more check-raises on the bubble and ITM. Get someone use to stealing the blinds, wait for them to make a mistake when you have a hand.

I want a TAG image at the table so when I have a hand like KK I can put some money in and maybe steal the blinds and just stay ahead. Sooner or later, I'll check on a monster, get an all-in and call...

Anyway - that's my general strategy. Sometimes I'll catch a hand early on I can't lay down and allow myself to get drawn out on and get crippled. But again - that is getting to be less and less.

One more thing - I read Doyle's online poker book...pretty short read. But he makes a point in there that I have seen in real money almost as much as play money. You can't bluff in online and be consistently successful. People are much more apt to call online then IRL games. Everything is digital and it's just easier to click on call then it is to put heavy chips in the middle during a real game. So w/ 5-10 people at a table, if you bluff, you WILL get a caller. Even if they have nothing. There could be AA on the board and you fire out knowing the other guy doesn't have the A (and you don't). You fire away representing the A - you will called anyway. Better to put the cards down online then maybe real life games. Now, if you have A - you want that caller. Point is - bluffing rarely comes out good in online poker over the long term.

Ronaldadio said:

I should not have gone all in after the flop

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True.

If you often play like that, Ron, I wouldn`t bother worrying about the quality of the opposition. It`s irrelevant, because you`re defeating yourself.

FinalTable said:

One more thing - I read Doyle's online poker book...pretty short read. But he makes a point in there that I have seen in real money almost as much as play money. You can't bluff in online and be consistently successful. People are much more apt to call online then IRL games. Everything is digital and it's just easier to click on call then it is to put heavy chips in the middle during a real game.

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Yes, I recall reading that and thinking what a good insight DB had there.

I play with play money online, and thus most of the people I play with are inexperienced(I would consider myself inexperienced as well). However I've done pretty well and I've nearly tripled my starting stack of 1000 chips and I've consistently won chips each session and here are some things I've found effective:

I will almost never raise preflop because most of the time people will just call you anyways even with complete trash hands and you end up with 7-8 players seeing the flop, your percentages diminished, and most likely one of your opponents hitting a set and you losing a lot of chips. Raising for information doesn't usually work either, because a lot of the people are all over the place and its impossible to get an accurate read on them, you're basically paying good money for bad information.

My strategy is to play extremely tight(I don't usually have to worry about changing my strategy if other people are catching on because players are always coming and going online), see as many board cards as possible, ie. limping into the flop, calling small bets if pot odds are with me to see the turn and river, etc. I rarely make it to showdown without folding simply because most of the time I don't hit a set and I fold.

When I do hit a set on the flop, I will call their bets on the flop and turn(I will never raise on the flop and turn...simply because an extremely tight player raising will raise a few eyebrows and many will catch on that you've got something big), and then raise big on the river. By this time, most of these guys will know that I have something big, but by this time it doesn't matter ... it seems to me that inexperienced players can't bring themselves to fold on the river... it must be a psychological thing, they've gone so far and put so much money into the pot they will almost always call even if they don't have a strong hand. If you're lucky someone will reraise in a hollow attempt to steal the pot and you'll bring in more chips.

To summarize, I follow a pretty simple maxim: I minimize my losses(by not trying to go heads up with 7-8 players at the flop, every chip I save by folding is a chip won IMO) and maximize my winnings(by suckering as many chips as I can out of people when I do have something big). I don't win very often... maybe once out of 15-20 hands, but when I do, the pot is almost always enormous. Keep in mind that a lot of players have trouble folding, so exploit this to your advantage... likewise don't go calling and raising with mediocre, semi-strong hands... people just don't seem to fold and while you may still have the best hand... the probability of one of your opponents winning will be much greater than the chance that you will win.