Playing JJ preflop to a re-raise

stately7

stately7

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Hello – first post here – so greetings, thanks for having me.

Been playing for 12-18 months, NLHE online up to $30NL and live $1/2 or $2/5 on occasion. (Pub tourneys too here in Aus).

Anyhow – have a live cash question from a casino session yesterday. Was a good short-ish 5 hour session, bought in for $200 on $1/2, left w/ $545, no complaints.

But two situations bothered me.

10 handed, I’m in middle to late position with JJ and $230. 3 limpers, so I raise to $15. Cut off calls and button raises to $40 total. I had only been at the table for 15 mins and had no real read on this guy other than that his stack was double mine at about $450 and he seemed like a solid player, so I thought about it and folded preflop! Cut off flat called, and after an all low card board, eventually the button wins with AQs against the cutoff’s A9o.

(Terrible play by cutoff, really, but he’s another story ;)

I knew button's range here was probably a few different hands, but my main concern at the time was being up against a bigger pair, something that would have worried me even when a low board flopped. Or of course seeing a flop with over cards, and considering his range would include AK and AQ as well, that would be an issue. I waited for better spots and like I said, had a good afternoon.

But should I have played this differently? Cheers in advance ☺

(This post was a bit long, so will ask the other question later!)
 
stately7

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BTW, sorry if I posted this in the wrong place! Perhaps it should be in cash game hand analysis...
 
Abedin120

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Maybe you needed to call. If I was in your place maybe I will pay only to see the flop and than if he made me another really big raise than I will go fold. However, you played like from the poker books and articles. There says that if you make raise with JJ and somebody else make you re-raise than you should go fold. However it depends from the player against you play. You said that you was 15 minutes on that table and you didn't know what kind of poker player was he, so many poker players would played the same, so you don't have to worry about.
 
vinnie

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I would like to raise a bit more live, after limpers. I would even go as high as $18-$20 depending on how loose the table was playing.

Folding JJ to a 3-bet and cold-call out-of-position, it's nitty but I don't hate it. I actually like it. If I had a read that the player was 3-betting light AND the BTN was aware of that and calling loosely, I would probably 4-bet this for value and as a squeeze. But, readless and with the impression that the players are tight/good (or at least not full blown idiots), I would probably let it got.

Also, it's a but "nit-picking" but there's no "waiting for a better spot" in cash games. That's really tournament terminology. In a cash game, there are no future or past spots. We're trying to make the most positive EV decision at this moment in time. We might have some concerns relating to image or previous hands (if we think someone is tilting or want to do something -EV to set up a +EV situation later), but the majority of the time we're not waiting for spots. We are just looking to maximize our expectation.

In this spot, I think folding maximized your expectation against the range you assumed he had. Playing JJ out-of-position and without the initiative against two players is going to be very hard on almost any board. Was folding a mistake? Maybe, probably not. But, even if it was a mistake, it's a small mistake compared to the mistakes you could have made post-flop.
 
Aleksei

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This is a jam or fold spot because right now you're OOP and you're gonna hate almost every flop. In a vacuum I fold, honestly.
 
J

jcdagenius

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i think these fold is ok......especially with no read.....at best you have to flop a set anyway....or its cooler most of the time....I also think a reraise with jacks isn't bad or shove......jj is still strong hand
 
Aleksei

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In fact, I would really not try to iso with JJ period. I'm usually gonna end up against 3 fishes with the top of their junk range; which is equivalent to being against one huge ****ing nit except you have no fold equity, and over half the time I'll flop an overcard. I'd probably like, minraise and setmine with it.
 
DaReKa

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Without any reads it's tough, but I'm probably raising here (to 85-90$). I would expect his 3betting range to be a lot wider on the button and vs. a raise and call. He can either count on the CO to fold almost their whole range and have a better pot to win if you fold, or he can count on isolating a weak, fishy player in the CO. So I would expect a 4bet to take it down more than 50% of the time giving me correct immediate odds to do it.
 
vinnie

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Without any reads it's tough, but I'm probably raising here (to 85-90$). I would expect his 3betting range to be a lot wider on the button and vs. a raise and call. He can either count on the CO to fold almost their whole range and have a better pot to win if you fold, or he can count on isolating a weak, fishy player in the CO. So I would expect a 4bet to take it down more than 50% of the time giving me correct immediate odds to do it.

It was a 3-bet then cold-call. Raising to $90 would offer better than 3.5:1 pot odds. If we 4-bet, it should be all-in.

That said, a 3-bet and cold-call by two players with position is a lot stronger than a call followed by a 3-bet, which could be a squeeze. So, I am not sure you're still advocating a 4-bet, given the difference in actual action.

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DaReKa

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I raise to $15. Cut off calls and button raises to $40 total

It was a 3-bet then cold-call. Raising to $90 would offer better than 3.5:1 pot odds. If we 4-bet, it should be all-in.

That said, a 3-bet and cold-call by two players with position is a lot stronger than a call followed by a 3-bet, which could be a squeeze. So, I am not sure you're still advocating a 4-bet, given the difference in actual action.
Hero is the initial raiser, CO calls and BTN raises(3bets). I hear these stakes are similar to micro stakes, and I think 4 bet would be a winning play at the micros. Although I always have a HUD to rely on to make the decision a lot easier. As far as a smallish 4bet or 4bet shove, I'm not really sure. If he decides he has odds to call and does, it's no big deal, you can check fold to bad flops, and cbet undercards or whatever. If he shoves over you, you get to decide his shoving range, and call if you have the odds to do it. So I'm still leaning towards the small 4bet.
 
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DaReKa

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Also, it's a but "nit-picking" but there's no "waiting for a better spot" in cash games. That's really tournament terminology. In a cash game, there are no future or past spots. We're trying to make the most positive EV decision at this moment in time. We might have some concerns relating to image or previous hands (if we think someone is tilting or want to do something -EV to set up a +EV situation later), but the majority of the time we're not waiting for spots. We are just looking to maximize our expectation.
This is true, but in some cases it's ok to wait for better spots if you're underrolled/want to reduce variance. It seems like the fold JJ decision was made for that reason. The 3better had OP covered, and $230 is a pretty hefty chunk of money, so it's a lot less risky to wait and get it in vs. a fish than a competent player repping a big hand.
 
vinnie

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I read the hand backwards, but I still am not a fan of the small 4-bet. If hero makes it $90, the btn is getting 3:1 on a call and also has the option to shove. If the btn shoves (assuming the CO folds) hero is being offered $342:$140 (2.44:1) and only needs 29% equity to call. I am hard pressed to find a range that jacks doesn't have that much equity against unless we know it's never an unpaired hand or a pair less than queens. Even against only KK+, and AKs hero should still call (that's 28% but factor in a margin of error and I can't fold JJ for that price).

We are allowing the btn to decide to outflop us, in position, for a great price or play the hand all-in pre-flop... he gets to pick whichever one he likes best. If I am going to 4-bet, I would rather put the max pressure on him and remove his positional advantage, since I will be priced into calling a shove anyway.

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Aleksei

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(that's 28% but factor in a margin of error and I can't fold JJ for that price).
Actually we can, because we're getting raked so we actually need around 33% to profit depending on how much rake is.
 
vinnie

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Live rake is capped at $5 where I am. Even with a $2 tip, we still only need 29% equity to call. There's no way we are being raked almost $24 on this hand.

And, that's probably a range we can't reasonably assume for the btn. If we thought he was that nitty, we would have folded instead of 4-bet. It might he close to his actual range, but there's more reasons to assume he's shoving [QQ+, AK] where we have 34% equity. That's still a tight range, but now it's a snap-call.

If he's potentially looser than that or has just temporarily lost his mind, folding is lighting money on fire.

Edit: we may not even be getting raked, some live rooms do an hourly charge. So there is no drop per hand. It certainly is a factor, but it is likely not a deciding one in a pot this large unless the rake is uncapped or the cap is something outrageous, like $20+.
 
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Aleksei

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Live rake is capped at $5 where I am. Even with a $2 tip, we still only need 29% equity to call. There's no way we are being raked almost $24 on this hand.
Goddamn man, live rake is that good?

(mind, I have not played in a casino in my life).
 
vinnie

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Goddamn man, live rake is that good?

(mind, I have not played in a casino in my life).

Lol, guess I've never thought of it as good. But, compared to the micros online (where I do play), you hit the cap a lot more often in the live games. At 25nl, you may never hit the $3 cap even after getting all in. Live, you often hit the cap even in medium sized pots.

It's better, percentage wise, than online but it's pretty brutal to your pocket. Hurts most in small pots, where you take down a $30 pot on the flop. When you're playing for stacks, it's barely noticed.
 
Aleksei

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So, avoid small pots. Letting the rake bite your profit more than it has to is a gigantic leak.
 
vinnie

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I guess my original point was that, if I 4-bet JJ here, it is with the intent to get it in. Barring some read on the BTN suggesting that he'll spew shove a small 4-bet with a wide-range, I prefer to be the player making the shove. A pot-sized raise would be to $144. A shove to $230 is a big overbet, but anything else leaves us committed for the whole stack anyway. Might as well get it in on my own terms.

All that said, I still prefer to fold in this spot, as OP did.

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Aleksei

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Well yeah like I said, this is a jam or fold spot. Flatting a squeeze OOP 3-way with about the worst "big" hand to play with multiway, is suicide.
 
stately7

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Thanks guys – great responses, lots to ponder!

Re waiting for a better spot, the point about not waiting like tournaments def reflects the fact I play more tournaments than cash, and looking to maximize +EV makes sense. Reducing variance and being underrolled for $200NLHE was spot on the case here, as another poster mentioned.

Tbh, being OOP I didn’t really consider 4-betting for very long, but shoving here makes sense, and would likely have produced a button fold, in hindsight. I am pretty nitty, but trying to improve to a strong TAG player with decent elements of LAG at the right moments. Yep, I was never going to flat call in this spot, that felt all kinds of wrong, fold or raise was the instinct, so it’s encouraging to see this general advice here.

I think this is a player dependent decision, but as I gain experience/skills, one I should no doubt work in live. (It’s funny, I’m still developing the 4-bet into my live cash game – other than obv hands like QQ, KK, AA, but online for lower stakes ring games, I’m much more comfortable 4-betting with a slightly wider range. Clearly it’s the $230 stakes here, not exactly scared money, but not something I’m doing every day either … yet ;)

Whether to 4-bet to $90 or shove – very interesting. I would have prob gotta fold for $125 but like has been mentioned, pot-committed anyhow if he shoves, so strong argument for 4-betting on my terms OOP etc.

Live rake here, btw, is 10% up to $10 per pot, plus $5 per hour time charge, so it’s fairly awful.

Aleksei – I really like your point about treating JJ here like 22-99 and set mining with it. I could have limped or min-raised and happily called a late position raise for prob much the same price as my initial raise. I set mined 5 times across yesterday’s session and enjoyed good fortune twice, so yeah, why not.
 
DaReKa

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Ok, so 4bet shoving is the way to go. Don't want to leave him odds to call with a lot of his light 3bet range to try to outflop JJ, although I'd assume he'd fold his whole light 3bet range anyway.

But let's look at the math for the 4bet shove - Risking $215 to win $76. If we put the 3betters range at 15% (which I think is fair in this spot) and he calls ONLY with hands he has odds to call with [QQ+, KQo+] then he will fold 66.67% of his range. So you win $76, 66.67% of the time for +$50.70. In the 33.33% of the time he calls, you have 45.79% equity, so you win $266 * 49.79% and lose $215, 54.21% of the time for +$5.50.

The whole calculation looks like this:
(.6667)($76) + (132.4414 - 116.5515)(.3333)
...which reduces to...
$50.70 + $5.50
So even if he played it perfectly there would be huge +EV vs. a 15% 3betting range; the more mistakes he makes (i.e. the wider he calls) then the higher the EV gets.

EDIT:Still working on this.. it seems so high EV that I'm wondering if I'm making some blaring math mistake. Testing EV against a 10% 3bet range now.
 
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Aces2w1n

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Yes definetly setmining, I'd be calling anyone that's deep stacked here because your getting the right implied odds. being a competent opponent might mean he has AK? well lets hope our J comes out with their A or K and then it's thank you very much. Especially live your getting paid off. odds 8:1 to hit a set on the flop? ... so as long as you have more than $160 and your villain it'll be +ev.

Although I like the sound of just shoving and cutting out the bs play :)
 
DaReKa

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I can't edit my post anymore because all this late night mathing took too long.
But let's look at the math for the 4bet shove - Risking $215 to win $76. If we put the 3betters range at 15% (which I think is fair in this spot) and he calls ONLY with hands he has odds to call with [QQ+, KQo+] then he will fold 66.67% of his range. So you win $76, 66.67% of the time for +$50.70. In the 33.33% of the time he calls, you have 45.79% equity, so you win $266 * 49.79% and lose $215, 54.21% of the time for +$1.75.

The whole calculation looks like this:
(.6667)($76) + (121.8014 - 116.5515)(.3333)
...which reduces to...
$50.70 + $1.75
So even if he played it perfectly there would be huge +EV vs. a 15% 3betting range; the more mistakes he makes (i.e. the wider he calls) then the higher the EV gets.

10% range looks like this
(.5)($76) + (121.8014 - 116.5515)(.5)
...which reduces to...
$38 + $2.62
This is my final work. I think I have corrected all the math errors. If there are any mistakes in my reasoning, please point them out. I will look it over again tomorrow to see if I can find any.

Anyway, if I did it all right, you can shove JJ and your opponent can't win even if he plays it perfectly (as long as he 3bets this spot pretty wide).
 
DaReKa

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Here are 3 small mistakes I made that don't make any difference.

  • I forgot to add in $3 from the blinds - doing that makes this slightly more +EV
  • In the 3betting ranges I constructed for villain (10%,15%), I included JJ,AJo,AJs and there are 13 less hand combinations within that range, because of hero's hand JJ. This makes villain betting that range only actually betting 9% and 14%. - makes it slightly less EV
  • Lastly I didn't include JJ in the range he would have odds to continue with. Makes practiclly no difference as it's only one hand combo with 50% equity.
I went down the line of right 3betting ranges, and even if he cbets the exact 5% of hands that have proper odds to call the shove, the move is +$6.62 EV. So it doesn't start being minus EV until around a 3-4% range.
 
J

JKlay7

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I don't think you should be folding preflop, in this situation your hand is not strong enough to raise get it in with no reads but JJ is strong enough to continue with and if you flop a set your gonna win all the money
 
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