Playing in 3-bet pots

pokerman27

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I often hear people saying that this player or that player does or doesn't play well in 3-bet pots...what defines 'good' play in a 3bet pot and what are our consdierations when playing in these pots?
 
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Deceitful_Frank

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I think the most important things are:

Figure out some standard polarised 3bet ranges. When you are in early position I would go purely for value. In later position you add more and more bluffs.

Figure out how villian reacts to being 3bet and how this compares to the average at your stake. If he folds more then add more bluff hands to your standard play in that situation and position. Small PPs could be added to the usual 76s, 98o etc and consider calling with position with KK, AA and perhaps QQ if those to your left are tight and unlikely to get out of line.

If he hates to fold then be less polarised, AQ, KQs could even creep in to your value range.

Above all, you MUST be careful after the flop because his calling range is going to be narrow so watch out for broadway boards and if you have 3bet him with small SCs it may be time to give up and check/fold.

If the flop comes low however you might be able to get a tight player to fold to a decent Cbet! I cold go on here for ages but this should hopely help!
 
c9h13no3

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A lot of players alter their play in 3-bet pots. They bluff wider, fold less, and in general are more likely to get that "I'll show you!" attitude. Or they'll play REALLY fit/fold putting you on aces whenever you 3-bet.

That's typically the two poor responses to 3-bet pot play.
 
coolnout

coolnout

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A lot of players alter their play in 3-bet pots. They bluff wider, fold less, and in general are more likely to get that "I'll show you!" attitude. Or they'll play REALLY fit/fold putting you on aces whenever you 3-bet.

That's typically the two poor responses to 3-bet pot play.

So what's the correct way to play? I'm having trouble with people flatting my 3bets and of course flopping sets and slowplaying them when I have position.

Here's a couple hands (no reads - any tips on how I should have proceeded):

2nd hand I guess is an easy fold? The guy in the first hand played it so weird.

full tilt poker $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $2.48
BB: $6.44
UTG: $1.59
UTG+1: $5.53
UTG+2: $3.67
MP1: $3.16
MP2: $7.29
CO: $4.31
Hero (BTN): $5.39

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BTN with J J
3 folds, MP1 raises to $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.52, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.42

Flop: ($1.11) K T 9 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.70, MP1 calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.51) 2 (2 players)
MP1 bets $0.15, Hero raises to $1, MP1 raises to $1.94 all in, Hero calls $0.94

River: ($6.39) 7 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Full Tilt Poker $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: $9.26
BB: $6.50
UTG: $9.49
UTG+1: $1.78
UTG+2: $2.45
MP1: $3.31
MP2: $1.57
CO: $8.62
Hero (BTN): $5.18

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero is BTN with K A
3 folds, MP1 raises to $0.17, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.52, 2 folds, MP1 calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.11) Q K T (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $0.70, MP1 raises to $2.79 all in, Hero calls $2.09

Turn: ($6.69) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($6.69) A (2 players - 1 is all in)
 
WVHillbilly

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So what's the correct way to play? I'm having trouble with people flatting my 3bets and of course flopping sets and slowplaying them when I have position.

Sounds like no trouble at all. This is a GREAT problem to have because when you 3bet and they call with small pairs to set mine you've already won because they're rarely getting the implied odds they need to call. Great result for you. Both the examples you posted were hands against less than full stacks so those guys are making an even bigger mistake calling preflop than if they had full stack, even greater result for you. So here is how to "fix" your "problem", keep 3betting and hope they keep calling. You're making money when they do you're just not looking at it in the right way to see it.
 
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Beasty2k

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A lot of players alter their play in 3-bet pots. They bluff wider, fold less, and in general are more likely to get that "I'll show you!" attitude. Or they'll play REALLY fit/fold putting you on aces whenever you 3-bet.

That's typically the two poor responses to 3-bet pot play.

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but I need help. I play 10NL at the moment and am doing fairly well but experimenting in being more aggressive preflop, 3-betting virtually any hand I would play in that position. Is it just variance that I am losing?

Just assume regular TAG villains for simplicity.

Question 1, how do I conquer the quote above? I do notice both the "I'll show you" and fit/fold, where the former is more common. More often than not, we are all-in by the river and my AT is in bad shape, even with top pair. (I feel at least at 10NL people tend to call 3-bets very tight, AQ+ and JJ+).

Question 2: If I 3-bet from the blinds with say JTs, get called from the CO or BTN raiser, and flop comes Kxx. I bet and feel I get floated loads of the time. Is this only because their standard 3-bet calling range is so tight as stated above? When I check the turn, obv he will bet to take it down or for value and I need to fold, but I already lost a good part of my stack from a c-bet in a 3-bet pot. I feel that if I c-bet on a low board in this example, say flop is 742, I will get floated even more as it's unlikely I will have hit that flop. I know I would often float that in position depending on villain to take it down on the turn as my JJ would be in decent shape.

Should I stop 3-betting these types of hands? I love playing suited connectors and calling in position with these and gappers, but I am trying to implement a sound 3-betting strategy and am experimenting a little. Lost 4 buyins over last 2 sessions.
 
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RickH1983

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If people are calling 3bets chances are they have some sort of hand or are looking to hit some sort of draw. 3betting marginal hands like AT wouldn't be a good idea. Especially out of position.
I wouldn't 3 bet from the blinds with marginal hands. You are going to get called by better hands. These are players that already have money in the pot for a reason. If you hit a straight or two pair you are fine. However what do you do if you hit a pair or a flush draw? Odds are someone has the nut flush draw or a better kicker.
In my opinion if you want to 3 bet do it in position. You will be able to better evaluate what other players do instead of putting yourself in a tough spot by having to make a quick decision being first to act.
 
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Beasty2k

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If people are calling 3bets chances are they have some sort of hand or are looking to hit some sort of draw. 3betting marginal hands like AT wouldn't be a good idea. Especially out of position.
I wouldn't 3 bet from the blinds with marginal hands. You are going to get called by better hands. These are players that already have money in the pot for a reason. If you hit a straight or two pair you are fine. However what do you do if you hit a pair or a flush draw? Odds are someone has the nut flush draw or a better kicker.
In my opinion if you want to 3 bet do it in position. You will be able to better evaluate what other players do instead of putting yourself in a tough spot by having to make a quick decision being first to act.

Thanks for your comments. Firstly, I like to 3-bet AT from the blinds sometimes vs a late position opener, which could be a steal or just a hand too weak to call a 3-bet, even in position. Villains seem to call very tight and often I take it down. If they 4-bet then I lay it down obviously, even if I suspect a re-steal - just well played by them.

And about 3-betting from the blinds is just that I hate playing out of position without initiative. 2/3 I miss the flop and more or less have to fold to a c-bet, as I don't like floating oop with air. Even if I call with say mid pair and he slows down on turn, chances are he hits river and has me beat - and he will call when I bet river.

I guess the biggest question I have is how to think about cbetting and calling cbets in 3-bet pots as ranges are narrow, depending on 1) our position, 2) do we have initiative, 3) what boards best to cbet in 3bet pot from the blinds or in position, floating etc... any comments much appreciated.
 
LD1977

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In 5NL I am also noticing these two types of players - regs and better players play "fit or fold" and fish mostly play super aggro since they have so much money in the pot. Usually ends up with fish taking few small pots until one of the regs hits the flop and stacks him.

I have bluffed on the 3bet multiway pot OOP once with a small bet and everybody folded :D that was nice, but I am not sure I want to keep doing it. My image in this case was really super tight and the board was low paired one so I figured it will work since it looks like I am pot committed (I wasn't :D).
 
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Beasty2k

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I have bluffed on the 3bet multiway pot OOP once with a small bet and everybody folded :D that was nice, but I am not sure I want to keep doing it. My image in this case was really super tight and the board was low paired one so I figured it will work since it looks like I am pot committed (I wasn't :D).

I think it's a good idea sometimes, if you have decent position...

Say UTG raises, CO 3-bets and you call on BTN. UTG calls. If both villains check flop, there is a good chance you can take it down. Only risk being UTG was checking to the raiser and calls or raises your flop bet. Either way, both villains have to play two more streets oop vs your seemingly strong hand otf.

Obviously depends on the board texture but overcards may fold to a decent bet. But no small raises, decent pot size bet especially on wet boards.

However, it seems to be easier to do all this in single raised pots. Villains just won't let go in 3-bet pots, and this brings me back to my original questions (see my last post above). Again, appreciate any comments anyone might have.
 
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RickH1983

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There is no need to 3 bet JTs from the blinds. You are going to lose more money than you win. Your best bet is to fold and go on to the next hand
 
AugustWest

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Since this is micro stakes, I think keeping decisions easy saves you money.
No need to 3B "lite". When you are 3B, you have 2 choices IMHO: Fold or 4B/shove and the only thing you should be 4B is KK/AA. There will be so many better spots.....
 
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Beasty2k

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There is no need to 3 bet JTs from the blinds. You are going to lose more money than you win. Your best bet is to fold and go on to the next hand
Then how can I possibly get stats where VPIP/PFR are close together?

I dunno, maybe I just prefer the "small-ball" approach to poker, not 3-betting too much and pot controlling when applicable. It has worked for me so far (10NL), but now I have tried to implement an aggressive 3-bet strategy - as I obviously have a hard time playing well in bloated pots.
 
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Beasty2k

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Since this is micro stakes, I think keeping decisions easy saves you money.
No need to 3B "lite". When you are 3B, you have 2 choices IMHO: Fold or 4B/shove and the only thing you should be 4B is KK/AA. There will be so many better spots.....
Yes, overthinking decisions (fancy play syndrome if you will) and trying too hard to win pots is probably somewhat of a leak. Folding more and dropping the aggression in general with semi-strong hands is probably a mantra I need to repeat when running bad.
 
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RickH1983

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3 bet in good position. You can steal with bad hands because you are representing good cards. Not only will you lose your 3 bet if you dont hit you will lose more money. A big part of the game is having money for when you get a big hand. If you max buy in and lose half and get a good hand and double up you are back to even. That is not profitable. If your theory doenst work at micro stakes its sure as hell not going to work at a higher level. Why not wait to play in position where it is easier to steal?
 
A2345Razz

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I often hear people saying that this player or that player does or doesn't play well in 3-bet pots...what defines 'good' play in a 3bet pot and what are our consdierations when playing in these pots?

Being balanced...at least once you get to decent stakes.

You want to be less predictable and more of an unknown quantity....

If you ONLY 3b with value hands, regs will catch on and will see it on their HUDs and then adjust accordingly.

I like to sprinkle in some 3Bets with hands like 79ss and 910ss...k9ss....with my value hands.

Of course being able to hand read and play postflop(not something CC guys are always known for, lol) is necessary to make this profitable.
 
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It's really hard to polarize someone as being bad in a 3 bet situation. Most people don't play like that because it really depends on the cards you have. If you have a big pocket pair and lower cards come, and you get 3 bet all the way, i mean there theres a good chance you would call thinking the guy has the top pair on the board and many a high kicker. If your pocket pair isnt stronger than a card on the board then you have reason for concern, so as I have said... it depends. There are good situations and bad situations... so watch out!
 
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swingro

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Actually it is harder than anyone here has explained. First of all to profile correctely a player so that you make the correct play you need several houndred hands at least. Without this, the 3-bet stats do not mean much.
But for a beginner there are some simple rulles to follow so they do not get in trouble. Avoid the nits, TAGs and SLPs when they 3-bet unless you have AA, KK and 4-bet light or stick it in preflop.Ocazzionaly to polarise you call flat to setmine with small PP (JJ-22) but not too often because playing fit or fold is not profitable on the long run.Setmining is the only reason . If you do not hit simply fold. 3-bet the fish with hands that you are confortable playing with because they will miss the pot so often. 3-bet the nits, TAGs and SLPs with premiums only. So the ideea is to not get involved in 3-bet pots where you do not know what to do.
For players that already know this, you need to study quite a bit an play to experience it yourself to become confortable of playing in 3-bet hands. There is quite a large chapter in Small Stakes No-Limit Holdem about 3-betting, 4-betting, squeezing. I advise you to read it. I am a beginner and do know a little about 3-bet concepts . I think experienced player know how to pinpoint exactely the +EV spots where 3-betting or 4-betting becomes profitable against a certain type of player.
 
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