Playing deep-stacked poker

I know that something changes in your approach once you are up over 50bbs or maybe even 100bbs on the table, and that deep-stacked poker is different from "normal" poker at around 100bb and even more different from short-stacked poker (<50bb)... but I am not exactly sure how.

Earlier today, i managed to get over 250BBs on the table (and fortunate enough to get up to 300BBs after playing behind a fish, and drained him of his last 50bbs or so on a couple of hands). I ended up tightening up quite a fair bit, and stayed away from a lot of hands in early position. Other than that though, I'm not sure what other adjustments I need to make.

From what I understand, strong post-flop play becomes more important, and I'd think that keeping stack sizes controlled is important unless you have a really strong hand. I'm reading that you'd call more pre-flop when you'd otherwise 3bet or 4bet (in position).

I read somewhere that you need to polarize your range a bit more too... and I'm wondering why? Is this what you do? And what does this mean -- what kinds of hands would you now fold that you have otherwise raised pre-flop, and what types of hands do you play pre-flop deep-stacked that you wouldn't otherwise play? Most of all... why?

I know this is a big question... but if you could boil it down to a couple of key points... what are some key changes to your overall approach as your stack gets past 200bb? I'm trying to read up a little right now... because next time I get to this kind of stack size, I want to have an effective way of playing that minimizes my downside while keeping the door wide open on the upside.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

You play more cautiously and your value range becomes tighter. Also you stack off preflop only with AA on 200bb poker. Not even KK.

Most players are uncomfortable playing with a very deep stack when the effective stacks exceed 200 BB. But often, cash games at medium limits do not give them another choice, how to learn to play with an unusually large number of chips. If you are serious about a positive game, then you need to pay attention to the size of your stack and stacks of rivals. Here are some notes to help you feel confident and use your deepstack correctly.


1. The value of middle hands is increasing
This rule is clear even to beginners. With a deeper stack, you can afford to play an extended range. Now you can safely play small pockets, suit aces, suit connectors. This also applies to such postflop hands as gutshots to nuts, a pair from the flop with backdoor draws, and of course strong straight draws and flush draws.

2. Nenats pre-made hands lose value
This is due to the first statement. If you have a strong ready hand, but not a nut (for example, a top pair with a good kicker or an overpair), you should bet so much that your opponents will not be able to draw their draws. In this case, if the opponent is still stronger, you will lose the maximum. Therefore, with deep stacks, it becomes more difficult to extract the maximum value from the finished hands of medium strength.

3. The position becomes even more important.
When you are in a position, this gives you an informational advantage over your opponents, and this advantage becomes even more significant with deep stacks. You can control the size of the pot, if you are in a position, you can manipulate the size of the pot so that it fits your needs. In a position and with deep stacks, you can seriously disperse the pot with your nuts or in an attempt to bluff, and you can also take no risks and watch free cards with your own hands of medium strength or draw.

4. Certain coolers cease to be coolers
If you have a 100 BB stack, you are all-in with AK on the A92 rainbow flop and meet a set of twos, then this situation can easily be called a cooler. But if the same thing happens with your stack already 300 BB, then your loss can probably be explained by a wrong draw. A very deep stack with the right game allows you to rise to the maximum with nuts and lose a minimum when you lose. And in the long run, this is a huge advantage.

nameless1537 said:

I know that something changes in your approach once you are up over 50bbs or maybe even 100bbs on the table, and that deep-stacked poker is different from "normal" poker at around 100bb and even more different from short-stacked poker (<50bb)... but I am not exactly sure how.

Earlier today, i managed to get over 250BBs on the table (and fortunate enough to get up to 300BBs after playing behind a fish, and drained him of his last 50bbs or so on a couple of hands). I ended up tightening up quite a fair bit, and stayed away from a lot of hands in early position. Other than that though, I'm not sure what other adjustments I need to make.

From what I understand, strong post-flop play becomes more important, and I'd think that keeping stack sizes controlled is important unless you have a really strong hand. I'm reading that you'd call more pre-flop when you'd otherwise 3bet or 4bet (in position).

I read somewhere that you need to polarize your range a bit more too... and I'm wondering why? Is this what you do? And what does this mean -- what kinds of hands would you now fold that you have otherwise raised pre-flop, and what types of hands do you play pre-flop deep-stacked that you wouldn't otherwise play? Most of all... why?

I know this is a big question... but if you could boil it down to a couple of key points... what are some key changes to your overall approach as your stack gets past 200bb? I'm trying to read up a little right now... because next time I get to this kind of stack size, I want to have an effective way of playing that minimizes my downside while keeping the door wide open on the upside.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Click to expand...

This is a great video by Doug Polk I happened to watch earlier today. It does a good job of examining deep stack play. Andrew Robl has 2000bb and Scott and Dan have 7-800bb.

TheGenera1 said:

This is a great video by Doug Polk I happened to watch earlier today. It does a good job of examining deep stack play. Andrew Robl has 2000bb and Scott and Dan have 7-800bb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WauJYoqiK_M

Click to expand...

Live poker is not the same. You are always deep stacked.

Babis VGS said:

Live poker is not the same. You are always deep stacked.

Click to expand...

That makes no sense at all.

TheGenera1 said:

That makes no sense at all.

Click to expand...

Why you say that? In live poker 99% of the time you have more than 100 bb

He's literally asking for advice on deep-stack play. It makes no difference if it's live or online. Deep stack is deep-stack. Do you have anything to contribute to the OP? Or shall we not derail the thread.

Thanks for the suggestions so far... and would welcome more. I am getting conflicting advice here -- one says to tighten up and another one says have a wider opening range. I have read that you can consider polarizing your range, but I still don't quite understand why you'd do that.

And by the way, the doug polk video is interesting and there are legitimate points made about what the 5bet does to limit your range, and the post-flop implications. I guess the key point about calling at some point is to disguise your range a little bit. I think the issues the highlights here probably applies to the online game as much as it does the live game.

The thing I will say is that the video does talk specifically talk about tournament play. I think there is overlap with cash game, but I think there are definitely some differences in approach as I've found after starting to play cash games online...

nameless1537 said:

Thanks for the suggestions so far... and would welcome more. I am getting conflicting advice here -- one says to tighten up and another one says have a wider opening range. I have read that you can consider polarizing your range, but I still don't quite understand why you'd do that.

And by the way, the doug polk video is interesting and there are legitimate points made about what the 5bet does to limit your range, and the post-flop implications. I guess the key point about calling at some point is to disguise your range a little bit. I think the issues the highlights here probably applies to the online game as much as it does the live game.

The thing I will say is that the video does talk specifically talk about tournament play. I think there is overlap with cash game, but I think there are definitely some differences in approach as I've found after starting to play cash games online...

Click to expand...

I'm glad you found it even somewhat interesting The video may mention tournament play but the game being played there is cash (Super High Roller Cash Game).

I think the rule you can use, especially at micro stakes is simply to stack off a lot tighter than usual. I folded KK twice yesterday when facing 200bb shove from a nit. However, against a more aggressive player I'm looking to get KK in for value.

The best way to profit from deep-stack play is to capitalise on your opponent's mistakes. At high stakes, they are less likely, but at micro stakes, players LOVE to call with really good hands, for 2-300bb even if it's not the nuts. Where as, if we look to really only get it in with the nuts against players who can't fold good, but non-nutted hands, we profit massively.

Example that happened to me. 250bb pot:

Hero: AK
Villain: AQ

Board
Q7AAK

I basically open shove river with AK, in a slow played pot and villain tanks for eternity, and calls with AQ and loses.

Hands that beat him? AA, AK.

People will say you can't fold the AQ there, but I disagree. For 250bb, we have to be very careful about what we are getting all in without the nuts.

Really depends on Villain tenancies etc. It can never be a huge losing play to fold 2nd or 3rd best hands this deep. In fact, I argue at micro stakes against nit type players, it's a huge winning one.

nameless1537 said:

Thanks for the suggestions so far... and would welcome more. I am getting conflicting advice here -- one says to tighten up and another one says have a wider opening range. I have read that you can consider polarizing your range, but I still don't quite understand why you'd do that.

And by the way, the doug polk video is interesting and there are legitimate points made about what the 5bet does to limit your range, and the post-flop implications. I guess the key point about calling at some point is to disguise your range a little bit. I think the issues the highlights here probably applies to the online game as much as it does the live game.

The thing I will say is that the video does talk specifically talk about tournament play. I think there is overlap with cash game, but I think there are definitely some differences in approach as I've found after starting to play cash games online...

Click to expand...

The tightening up part is mainly in post flop situations where it can be catastrophic to be over-setted or lose to a higher flush/straight when all the money goes in.

You loosen up PF mainly because if you hit your hand you can more easily get paid - you get implied odds to see a flop with all pocket pairs, connectors, Axs, Kxs. But if some tight player goes all-in on a relative dry board bottom set can be a real loser so still be careful with 22-66 in some situations.

You also get better implied odds to hit when you call a 3-bet, 4-bet and so on.

If players don't pay you off you can of course start bluffing and semi-bluffing more since they also have to protect their stack when deeper. Most player do not stack off with over pairs or worse if you're not a crazy maniac.

All this is easier to do in POSITION. You can almost at will cut off a street, or add a street in position when you are deep.

So your range from EP can be pretty normal/the same as in a 100bb deep game. But definitely loose up PF in position since you get so much more opportunities to bet big booth for value and bluff. (PF you also have to be careful not to stack off with anything but AA against some players).

So your stack off ranges is tighter when you call big bets or all-ins since you can lose so much.

But your PF calling range is wider (in position) since you can win much more by hitting your very good hands or putting pressure on players by bluffing.

That makes it seem like you have to be both loser and tighter at the same time.