Playing against "callers"

Something I've been running into lately in 6 max. Having no idea where you stand in a hand. Position can be any place.... put us first to act or last dosen't matter. Either we're betting and people are calling, or table will check to us we'll bet, and then all callers! Whats the best way to play against this?

I feel like I'm just playing blind, I have no idea if middle pair is good even TPGK in a hand because I'll bet it and nobody budges, just call, call, call, unless they have a big hand. If I don't bet it, it's usually 90% that SOMEONE will whether they have something or not... especially if they're last to act. But again I bet and just get callers what the hell should I be doing next? In that scenario if I check the turn or river, it's 95% certain again someone is betting.

I don't want to go into super passive mode and just call everything down like the majority of the table. Just seems like lately (even when I was at full ring) I was winning small post and losing the big ones. I don't know if there's some kind of leak I should be looking out for.

So I try to figure out people. Many people play tight and usually have it. Many others are idiots. I adjust my play based on that.

The tight people I tend to bet smaller against and try to get away from hands after betting just once. I might have to mix it up if they catch on to that, but generally that works for me vs them.

The fish.... well again, you have to watch. But the main thing I try to do is to not give them odds. So I bet pot or more against their draws. It increases my variance, but I'm generally fine with that. tournaments are cheap and I'm winning these flips in the long run and giving myself a good spot to run the table when I win a > 60% flip.

If there's no straight or flush draws though, there's nothing that says you have to bet if you have a hand that holds up either.

rlzaleski, I have noticed that the "fish" will often call, irregardless of odds. I think the incentive may be even greater for this type of player to call a larger bet, because they feel that they will win even more, if their draw hits. Yesterday, I hit top pair on the river, won the hand, and I was accused of chasing a one-outer. In actuality, I had an open-ended straight draw on the Flop and a flush draw on the Turn. I called with seventeen outs and great odds, eventually making a less-than-optimal but winning hand. All my opponent could see was that I got top pair on the River. They weren't aware of the other possibilities, based on the board texture, even after seeing my hand at showdown. This is from the perspective of being the drawer, rather than the bettor, but it demonstrates how unaware of odds that some players can be.

At 6 max, really hard to read and predict opponents because of loose and aggressive style table.

At least at full table, you can feel who has live hands (ex. through betting) and in the process, you can read table dynamics and opponents well.

With regards to winning small pots and losing to big ones, you have to device a way to reverse it.

This post is too vague. Are you playing a lot of limped pots? Are you the preflop aggressor? You sound like you are in a dream game.

Make your raises bigger and see how much are they willing to put in pre flop. Every time you have an edge pre and they call its going to be a profitable bet. So if you raise 3x BB make it 5xBB and see how that works. Just make them pay when you have a good hand and watch your BR going up.

razzor94 said:

Make your raises bigger and see how much are they willing to put in pre flop. Every time you have an edge pre and they call its going to be a profitable bet. So if you raise 3x BB make it 5xBB and see how that works. Just make them pay when you have a good hand and watch your BR going up.

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Agreed. If everyone is calling your pre flop raise - then raise bigger. Sometimes I will raise 5x or 6x on that type of table and still get 2 calls.

Then when you hit your hand - just keep betting. If you have a monster, bet huge. You can overbet more than the pot and they will still call, chasing their flush against your made boat until the river - hee hee!

Can you give us an example of a hand for us to analyse?

In general, if your table is "fishy" (multiple players seeing the flop and reaching the river, frequent multiway pots), then you want to value bet hard and protect yourself from draws.

For example, if you're playing 1/2 live, there's $60 in the pot, 3 fishy opponents, the board is Kh, Tc, 9c, you have Kd Qd and you decide to bet $25, then you can expect multiple callers chasing things like gutshots, backdoor flush draws and getting sticky with middle or bottom pair. You want to be betting at least $50 in this spot. Too often I see players making this mistake of not betting enough, then complaining when they get multiple callers chasing things like gutshots. Bet more against fish! Punish them for chasing draws and getting sticky with bottom/middle pair!

Be yourself, do bet, fold, check, all in when you feel its the best way to do...

Once you have figured out who you are playing against (tight, fish, etc.) play accordingly. I agree with above...if you bet big to punish the fish for calling draws in the long run you will make bigger profits. Sure, they will draw out on you sometimes, but if you are always getting your money in with 60% chance of winning or better, you are going to make bank off the fish over the long run. Against tight villains, better to bet once and find an excuse to fold if they keep playing. Gl out there!

vwls said:

rlzaleski, I have noticed that the "fish" will often call, irregardless of odds.

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The idea isn't to push them out so much as it is to make them make mistakes. This is where bank roll / risk management comes into play. You want to be able to play the game you can 50-100 times. Then these situations become winning ones.

So long as you don't tilt when you loose. Which most good players, myself included, have happen from time to time. Other days I'll run like God and be chip leader until the final table. It's just variance, and you have to mentally deal with it. But I will take players who will call an all-in to make a flush draw any day of the week. If I ever question it I just fire up Poker stove and make sure my % equity is > 50% and I'm happy.

Maybe when ICM comes in to play for tournament payouts I care a bit more. But so long as I'm picking good spots to take a chance, I want them to call with low equity, and win my 6/10 - 9/10 of the flips

vwls said:

Yesterday, I hit top pair on the river, won the hand, and I was accused of chasing a one-outer.

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Don't even pay attention to them. Just channel their anger. My play style tends to piss people off. When I sense them playing back and me more and enraged, I just wait for a good spot, then pull my "Crap" again and bust them. Maybe my aces get cracked after a pre-flop all in, but again I was 85% to win when I got it in. I'm still going to loose 1/6 of the time, which will be 3-4 times in a row sometimes, but that's poker.

Focus on your decisions, not the results!

Interesting, rlzaleski. I had never considered the importance of bankroll management in the way that you have described. That's kind of an eye-opener. Thanks for the advice.

Nice advice - MIXED!!
I agree!
As for me I choose 6max but sometimes can play full ring.

But!

But if we starts to talk about tournaments I'll be voting for the full ring tables. I hate 6 max tourneys...

6a6yJIbkO_o said:

Something I've been running into lately in 6 max. Having no idea where you stand in a hand. Position can be any place.... put us first to act or last dosen't matter. Either we're betting and people are calling, or table will check to us we'll bet, and then all callers! Whats the best way to play against this?

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Knowing "where you stand" is more about playing the odds than soul reading two cards. You're almost always dealing with ranges playing poker, whether they are narrow or wide.

I'm replying to this because I think knowing how to correctly adjust to various player types is one of the most fundamental (and important) things a beginning player should learn before furthering their study. Everyone needs to give this concept some serious thought if they haven't done so already. If you and I are playing online and my fold and raise buttons have literally been disabled (I'm almost expecting PS to actually make this change to their client any update now) but yours have not, what is the best approach you should take? I think we can agree that you're the one with the advantage instead of me, right, but how do you maximize that advantage?

I wasn't actually going to answer the question... I just like typing meaningless stuff. Of relevance however is that players will hold a big pair (jacks or better) in only 1.8% of hands they're dealt into. They'll flop flushes in less than 0.2% of hands. More often than not they'll have no pair at all when the flop comes down. Players can't influence what they're dealt - instead only what they choose to play. Oh and ideally you are sufficiently rolled to lap up any and every edge in EV the poker gods afford you (sounds obvious yes but it's been debated in the past by relatively sharp people) but if you're not then construct your strategy accordingly.

rlzaleski said:

But I will take players who will call an all-in to make a flush draw any day of the week.

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I was randomly re-reading some threads, when I came across what you said here. Something that frequently comes up in my notes are situations like the one that you have described, where people shove or call a shove with only a draw. Do you have any specific thoughts about this action, either shoving or calling a shove in such a situation? I read in a book once that it can be a sound strategy, but I hardly believe that the numerous situations that I see this strategy being used are optimal situations. The one time that it happened against me and I felt that it was a good play was in one of the first couple of hands in a STT. I was heads-up, and my opponent had shoved on the flop with both the nut flush draw as well as an open-ender. I had Aces on a flop that was low enough to not hit most hands that I would have raised, pre-flop. I'm sure that they expected a fold or to have a good chance to win against over-cards. Any thoughts?

I think there is something called the horse race concept where a slightly above average hand becomes a bad hand when playing against a bunch of speculative hands... Basically what I'm trying to say is when playing against a full table of loose passive fish, don't go value betting your JJ on 287ss like it's the nuts.

my approach is to value bet while they're drawing but to be super cautious on the river. Get your value on the flop and turn. Never expect fold equity till the river.

Just don't ever bluff, since they are callers, and value bet your made hands.

This is the last time I busted a MTT like this.

Full Flush poker game #1249134020: Tournament #4944882:
CO: HERO (2995.00 in chips)
MP: Villan (4985.00 in chips)

75/150 Blinds 15 Ante

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO [Ad Qh]
QueefBeef: folds
davlu: folds
24Hilldale: folds
Villan: calls 150.00
Nightly: folds
OMAN: folds
HERO: raises 900.00 to 900.00
gmmid: folds
badboy391: folds
elitenuts: folds
Villan: calls 750.00
*** FLOP *** [10c Kd Jd]
Villan: checks
HERO: bets 450.00
Villan: calls 450.00
*** TURN *** [10c Kd Jd][8c]
Villan: checks
HERO: bets 1630.00
Villan: calls 1630.00
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO shows Ad Qh
Villan shows Qc 7c
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6335.00
Board [10c Kd Jd 8c Jc]


But most of the time I double up there. Only misplay might have been betting 1/4 on the flop instead of shoving, but i wanted the action. But hands like this happen all of the time. He was only a 22% chance to win. I think the pot was call 1600 to win 4600. Maybe I gave him odds, but most of the time this works perfectly, and there's so many hands like AK who are 100% dead there.

Thing is you need to be able to loose the 30% of the time here and not have your bankroll collapse when it happens. And if you loose 30% of your tournaments like this, it's going to happen multiple times in a row. I'm sitting on a 2x stack here, I made good moves in the 30-100 hands before this. Just happens. That's poker, that's variance.

Wow that's rough

rlzaleski said:

This is the last time I busted a MTT like this.

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Thank you for the insight. Do you think that the type of play by your opponent in the example is effective? I don't think that you do--and I don't think so, either--but I see many players doing this. Is there some stream of knowledge that I am missing here, or are these players simply being goobers?

Math says the preflop call was horrible. I intentionally gave him odds to call post flop, but with Q high I don't see how he could justify it, he needed 10:1 not 5:1 to call on that hand. Maybe he thought I had AK and he could make a straight, then it was right to call post flop I suppose, and I should have bet 1/2 pot like I normally do.

People get mad and make stupid moves, and that's a big source of value for those who are more disciplined. You just can't look at any single hand and say it's good/bad based on the result, but based on the math and understand that means when you play it 10-100 times.

notes

bitowl said:

I think there is something called the horse race concept where a slightly above average hand becomes a bad hand when playing against a bunch of speculative hands... Basically what I'm trying to say is when playing against a full table of loose passive fish, don't go value betting your JJ on 287ss like it's the nuts.

my approach is to value bet while they're drawing but to be super cautious on the river. Get your value on the flop and turn. Never expect fold equity till the river.

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i agree, would add that making notes is key. you will run into them again, so observe not only the hands you are in, but also when they call down someone else. you'll pretty soon have a good concept of what they are holding.